Pope John Paul the Great?

Originally posted by rwingett
I lived at East Wind Community, in Missouri, for a year. Their website is: http://www.eastwind.org/

Thanks for the link. I see from that page that "there may be some weeks that all members are required to spend a few hours working in our businesses." The use of "required" implies that someone or some group within the commune acts as an enforcer, I would think. Any comments on that?

[If it were a religious commune, you can bet there would be an autocratic alpha male wielding the whip!]

Originally posted by Paul Dirac
Thanks for the link. I see from that page that "there may be some weeks that all members are required to spend a few hours working in our businesses." The use of "required" implies that someone or some group within the commune acts as an enforcer, I would think. Any comments on that?

[If it were a religious commune, you can bet there would be an autocratic alpha male wielding the whip!]

They community decided (collectively) that it may be necessary on rare occasions to have a small amount of assigned labor to meet certain production requirements. It applies to everyone equally. They have two main income generating industries: making hammocks and peanut butter. Even though internally they are an egalitarian socialist commune, externally they are situated within a larger capitalist framework and must abide by the rules of that system. Which means that if they have been contracted by Pier 1 to build x number of hammocks, then they are obliged to meet that production goal. Which may mean a few hours of assigned labor per week.

As cleaning the dishes after meals is universally unpopular, that too is assigned on a rotating basis, with everyone getting their turn eventually. It should be noted that this is not something that is applied by some external "enforcer", but is something the community has collectively agreed to apply to themselves. As no one is exempted from doing the dishes when their turn rolls around, it is an egalitarian system.

Other than that you are free to work your hours wherever you want. I chose to spend virtually all my time in the two main industries. Since assigned labor, whenever it came up, always applied to hammocks, it had no effect on me since I was already doing the bulk of my labor there anyway.

Originally posted by no1marauder
left up to our own devices we would only do evil.


I categorically reject this extremist and self-hating view of the human race.

You may reject what ever you wish, however it does not change the facts our basic nature is to do evil. I don't hate self, remember the prhase, "hate the sin, love the sinner", that is the reflection of our Lord and of which we should all ascribe.

Originally posted by Una
You may reject what ever you wish, however it does not change the facts our basic nature is to do evil. I don't hate self, remember the prhase, "hate the sin, love the sinner", that is the reflection of our Lord and of which we should all ascribe.

And you feel that we as the human race have no power to eradicate our 'evil nature' by our own efforts? Not one of us? That we have no ability to understand the human mind experientially through direct insight to see the cause of our ills which is ego-clinging?

Never mind. I know your answer.

I always find it amusing that we humans are assigned an evil nature as an inherent dis-ease by those who do not look directly at the causes of 'sin' which is a belief in I, me, mine, all constructs of the mind of ignorance.

Originally posted by eagles54
And you feel that we as the human race have no power to eradicate our 'evil nature' by our own efforts? Not one of us? That we have no ability to understand the human mind experientially through direct insight to see the cause of our ills which is ego-clinging?

Never mind. I know your answer.

I always find it amusing that we humans are assigned an e ...[text shortened]... the causes of 'sin' which is a belief in I, me, mine, all constructs of the mind of ignorance.

Your are absolutely correct when you say "the causes of 'sin' which is a belief in I, me, mine, all constructs of the mind of ignorance". Our soul (which comprises our mind, will and emotions) is ignorant of the presence of the Lord. Once we are born again (our spirit), the battle for the mind starts and continues until the death of our mortal flesh.

The other cause of sin is "unbelief", we have a tendency to always believe the "lie", no matter what it is. Ranging from God does not love us, to we are unworthy. However, the root is "belief in I, me, mine". Since Christ died for me to demonstrate His love, I can believe I am worthy of Him. He was the one who shed His blood so that we might have eternal life, so who am I to argue with that.

Originally posted by Una
Our soul (which comprises our mind, will and emotions)

Can you tell me the source of your assertion? Thank you.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
As a commentator on the Beeb said a few days back, "The Church is not here to be popular". Its job is to proclaim and teach the truth about Revelation, not change it to fit an opinion poll.

EDIT: If that causes its popularity to decline in the Western world, so be it.

I agree with you....should the church one day be asked to change doctrine and accept pedophiles due to the "changing nature of society", where will it end? Serial killers as candidates for priesthood...🙄 As a non-Catholic, I do think the Church should reviewe its stance on condom use...it would prevent the spread of HIV 'cause the Africans ain't gonna stop screwing, so they may as well be able to 'wrap the furniture' and possibly save some lives at the same time...but will they even use condoms? 😲

Originally posted by rwingett
... It applies to everyone equally...

Okay, that is good to hear. (I am pretty sure Rev. Jim Jones and Rev. David Koresh did not dirty their own hands with the compound's laundry and dishes. They were too good for that.)

Originally posted by rwingett
The Catholic Church has changed other rules in the past. Why not a few more?

Good point...

Originally posted by Una
You may reject what ever you wish, however it does not change the facts our basic nature is to do evil. I don't hate self, remember the prhase, "hate the sin, love the sinner", that is the reflection of our Lord and of which we should all ascribe.

You may reject what ever you wish, however it does not change the facts our basic nature is to do evil.


That is not a "fact", but merely an assertion on your part. The evidence I see around me every day refutes your premise; kindness and compassion is the general rule, cruelty and violence the exception. While there is far too much of the second, the simple fact is that Man is a social animal who acheived dominance over the world by cooperation with other men. You "Christians" can't refute this obvious observation and to me it leads to the conclusion that if Man has any type of "nature" it is not evil.

Originally posted by no1marauder
You may reject what ever you wish, however it does not change the facts our basic nature is to do evil.


That is not a "fact", but merely an assertion on your part. The evidence I see around me every day refutes your prem ...[text shortened]... conclusion that if Man has any type of "nature" it is not evil.

I always thought the basic nature of mankind is to do do

Originally posted by eagles54
Can you tell me the source of your assertion? Thank you.

1Thes5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;

This passage tells us we have a:
1. spirit
2. soul
3. body

Heb4:12 for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;

This passage is a little more difficult in that the both soul and spirit are mentioniond, but the body is described as "joints and morrow"

Below are the words taken from Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius Hebrew Aramaic Lexicon for the word soul:

SOUL (nephesh):
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion

Originally posted by Una
You may reject what ever you wish, however it does not change the facts our basic nature is to do evil. I don't hate self, remember the prhase, "hate the sin, love the sinner", that is the reflection of our Lord and of which we should all ascribe.

This is a theologically absurd position.

If we were made in God's image, then how could it be in our essential nature to do evil
(unless God's essential nature is to do evil)?

If we were made perfect, then our essence is of perfection. The fall is extraneous to
our Nature -- an outside mitigating factor which affects our nature -- and, as such is
not our 'essence.'

If we were essentially evil, then it would be reasonable to hate the self, but of course
that makes no sense. It is because we are made in God's image that we should love
the self (and other 'selves'😉, but hate that which is evil that comes into us through sin.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Una
1Thes5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;

This passage tells us we have a:
1. spirit
2. soul
3. body

Your interpretation is a product of confusion between English and Greek.

The word which is translated 'soul' is 'psyche' and word which is translated 'spirit' is 'pneuma.'

Psyche means one's essential self, one's spiritual representation. Pneuma is often
translated as 'breath' or 'wind,' and it means one's 'life-ness.' So, a clearer translation might
read: '...may your whole breath (that which makes you alive), and soul (that which is your
essence), and body (no problems here), be preserved...'

This passage is far more theologically complex than you are understanding it.

Nemesio