1. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    06 Apr '05 16:092 edits
    It seems there is a growing movement that wants to give the title of "the Great" to Pople John Paul II. This is something that has only been done twice before, more than 14 centuries ago. A canon law authority, the Rev. James Conn, noted there is no "code or procedure" to add the title. "It's more of a popular acclamation," said Conn, "It gains strength and credibility each time it's proclaimed."

    Pope John Paul the Great?

    But even if he can be given the title by "popular acclamation", would it be deserved? The Pope's staunchly conservative views have been noted by more than one person on this site. His adamant refusal to allow condom use, which could help fight against the spread of AIDS is one point in case.

    The case could be made that the Pope's refusal to modernize the Catholic Church and to make it more palatable to the 21st century mindset will contribute to its continued decline. Below are some statistics for what happened with American Catholics during the Pope's reign:

    1. The number of Catholics increased from 48.7 million to 64.3 million (although the percentage held steady at 23% ).
    2. The number of Nuns decreased from 135,225 to 70,194 (-48% )
    3. The number of Brothers decreased from 8,625 to 5,434 (-37% )
    4. The number of Priests decreased from 58,909 to 43,304 (-26% )
    5. The number of Graduate-level seminarians decreased from 5,279 to 3,285 (-38% )
    6. Then number of parishes increased from 18,515 to 19,026 (+3% ) but the number of parishes without a resident priest also increased from 702 to 3,157 (+350% )

    Of the priests who are currently on the job, there are a large percentage who are at, or past, retirement age. The percentage of American Catholics who attend church once a week or more has declined from 45% to 27%. An increasing number find themselves at odds with Catholic teachings on such things as contraception, abortion, homosexuality, etc.

    The Pope's steadfast adherance to old time religion has no doubt pleased many within the Catholic Church, but it has increasingly alienated itself from the populace at large. If Catholics elect another Pope with the same views as John Paul II, then it may fatally undermine the authority of the Catholic Church in many of the westernized nations, like the US. Future Popes may increasingly find themselves in the position of being publicly admired but privately ignored.

    So, should the Catholic Church stick to the same course of action and see its influence continue to dwindle or should it try to revitalize itself by perhaps allowing women priests, or relaxing its ban on contraception, or by any number of other reforms that it could implement?

    Source for all statistics: Ann Arbor News
  2. London
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    06 Apr '05 16:252 edits
    Originally posted by rwingett
    It seems there is a growing movement that wants to give the title of "the Great" to Pople John Paul II. This is something that has only been done twice before, more than 14 centuries ago. A canon law authority, the Rev. James Conn, noted ...[text shortened]... t it could implement?

    Source for all statistics: Ann Arbor News
    As a commentator on the Beeb said a few days back, "The Church is not here to be popular". Its job is to proclaim and teach the truth about Revelation, not change it to fit an opinion poll.

    EDIT: If that causes its popularity to decline in the Western world, so be it.
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    06 Apr '05 16:29
    Why would the Catholic Church find it necessary to 'reinvent' itself or undergo an image enhancement because of dwindling interest? How can the world's largest sect of Christianity justify such a change for the purpose of glorifying their God?

    The Catholic Church (and Christians in general) follow a set of stringent guidelines that God himself has supposedly given to us through scripture. To bend those rules to conform to the advancement of the reasonable majority is wishy-washy and biblically "lukewarm". They made their bed, now let them lie in it.

    With regards to giving PJP2 the title of "The Great", this is absolutely ridiculous. Not that he wasn't great but at least let some time pass before you go granting him such a grandiose title. People too often get caught up in emotion and flattery when a publicised death occurs. Time will tell if PJP2 will actually be remembered as 'The Great'.
  4. London
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    06 Apr '05 16:35
    Originally posted by darvlay
    Why would the Catholic Church find it necessary to 'reinvent' itself or undergo an image enhancement because of dwindling interest? How can the world's largest sect of Christianity justify such a change for the purpose of glorifying their God?

    The Catholic Church (and Christians in general) follow a set of stringent guidelines that God himself has ...[text shortened]... ublicised death occurs. Time will tell if PJP2 will actually be remembered as 'The Great'.
    Exactly.

    I reckon he will eventually be called Pope St. John Paul II the Great.
  5. Donationrwingett
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    06 Apr '05 16:40
    Originally posted by darvlay
    Why would the Catholic Church find it necessary to 'reinvent' itself or undergo an image enhancement because of dwindling interest? How can the world's largest sect of Christianity justify such a change for the purpose of glorifying their God?

    The Catholic Church (and Christians in general) follow a set of stringent guidelines that God himself has ...[text shortened]... ublicised death occurs. Time will tell if PJP2 will actually be remembered as 'The Great'.
    The Catholic Church has changed other rules in the past. Why not a few more?
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    06 Apr '05 16:48
    Originally posted by rwingett
    The Catholic Church has changed other rules in the past. Why not a few more?
    Curious; what has been the most drastic "rule change" the Catholic Church has made? Would it be anywhere near as controversial as changing opinions on homosexuality or abortion? I would argue the Church wouldn't even survive such a drastic change in biblical policy. The negative aspect is just too glaring.
  7. Felicific Forest
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    06 Apr '05 16:481 edit
    Originally posted by rwingett
    It seems there is a growing movement that wants to give the title of "the Great" to Pople John Paul II. This is something that has only been done twice before, more than 14 centuries ago. A canon law authority, the Rev. James Conn, noted ...[text shortened]... t it could implement?

    Source for all statistics: Ann Arbor News
    How about the developments in Africa and Asia ? The US are not the world you know.

    Ask the old Sowjet communists what role he plaid in the downfall of the communist dictatorship in the former Sowjet Union. Ask the Poles what his role was in the huge political changes in Poland and Eastern Europe.

    ..... of course he is hated by communists and others who mourn the downfall of all those authoritarian governments ...... and it goes on and on .... as we are able to see in the former Sowjet Republics of Georgia, Belarus, Kyrgistan etc.

    You being a former communist, converted to anarchism after the fall of the Berlin Wall, will certainly never call him Pope John Paul the Great, because you hate him, the Church and the members of His Church for above reasons.
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    06 Apr '05 16:53
    Originally posted by ivanhoe

    How about the developments in Africa and Asia ? The US and Europe are not the world you know.
    Do you have any statistics you'd be willing to share?
  9. London
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    06 Apr '05 16:54
    Originally posted by rwingett
    The Catholic Church has changed other rules in the past. Why not a few more?
    On liturgical and administrative matters, yes. Not on fundamental matters of doctrine.
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    06 Apr '05 17:00
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    On liturgical and administrative matters, yes. Not on fundamental matters of doctrine.
    I've never understood the necessity of liturgy or its biblical origins. That would be a thread I would love to read.
  11. Felicific Forest
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    06 Apr '05 17:05
    Originally posted by darvlay
    Do you have any statistics you'd be willing to share?

    I don't have any statistics available. However I don't doubt they are somewhere on the internet.
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    06 Apr '05 17:08
    Originally posted by ivanhoe

    I don't have any statistics available. However I don't doubt they are somewhere on the internet.
    That sounds like work to me. I'm not falling for that old trick. 😉
  13. London
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    06 Apr '05 17:10
    Originally posted by darvlay
    I've never understood the necessity of liturgy or its biblical origins. That would be a thread I would love to read.
    Quite simply, the Mass (or liturgy) has two parts:

    1. Liturgy of the Word - A series of Readings from the Bible. Usually consists of a First Reading from the Old Testament / Acts of the Apostles, a Psalm, a Second Reading from the New Testament Epistles, and a reading from the Gospel. The practice of reading from the Scriptures was a part of Jewish worship in the synagogues.

    2. Liturgy of the Eucharist - The re-enactment of the Last Supper.

    All very Biblical.
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    06 Apr '05 17:12
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Quite simply, the Mass (or liturgy) has two parts:

    1. Liturgy of the Word - A series of Readings from the Bible. Usually consists of a First Reading from the Old Testament / Acts of the Apostles, a Psalm, a Second Reading from the New Testament Epistles, and a reading from the Gospel. The practice of reading from the Scriptures was a part of Jewish ...[text shortened]... ues.

    2. Liturgy of the Eucharist - The re-enactment of the Last Supper.

    All very Biblical.
    I have some questions but do you mind if I start a new thread?
  15. Felicific Forest
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    06 Apr '05 17:141 edit
    Rwingett: "So, should the Catholic Church stick to the same course of action and see its influence continue to dwindle or should it try to revitalize itself by perhaps allowing women priests, or relaxing its ban on contraception, or by any number of other reforms that it could implement?"

    The Church is not a political party. It's goal is not to please people and to get as many votes they can get. The Truth cannot be changed, Rwingo, although many are trying to do just that ..... and guess why they are doing this ?

    You accept the Truth or you reject it. You do not negotiate about it. I had the strong impression this is also the situation in the scientific world ...... thank God ...... or is the truth determined by polls over there ?

    EDIT: The Church does not ban contraception, she bans UNNATURAL ways of contraception. Contraception based on the woman's period is no problem at all.

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