1. Standard memberNemesio
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    02 Sep '06 18:56
    Sorry for the Ivanhoic Cut/Paste job.

    Professor-Turned-Pope Leads a Seminar on Evolution
    By IAN FISHER
    ROME, Sept. 1 — They meet every year, the eminent German professor and his old doctoral students, for a weekend of high-minded talk on a chosen topic. For years it was nothing more than that.

    But now the professor, once called Joseph Ratzinger, has become Pope Benedict XVI. And this year, for three days beginning Friday, the topic on the table is evolution, an issue perched on the ever more contentious front between science and belief.

    And so the questions rise as the meeting unfolds at a papal palace just outside Rome. Is this merely another yearly seminar? Or is the leader of the world’s billion Roman Catholics signaling that he may join in earnest the emotional debate over evolution, intelligent design and all that might mean for politics and faith, especially in the United States?

    There is no way to know immediately, though many church experts believe that the pope has fewer problems with the science of evolution than with its use to wipe God more cleanly from a secular world. No document will be published afterward, no news conference given.

    But the seminar comes after a year particularly fraught over the issue of evolution, in America — with the fight over intelligent design — and in the church. Last year a leading cardinal, who will speak at the meeting, expressed doubts that Darwinism and Catholicism were compatible, and the pope declared the creation of the universe an “intelligent project.”

    And so scientists and believers from around the world, on all sides of an extraordinarily charged debate, are watching the meeting carefully.

    Proponents of intelligent design, defeated in a high-profile court case last year in Pennsylvania, say they are pleased that their ideas, which posit that life is so complex that it requires an active creator, may get a fair hearing in the lofty circles of Professor Ratzinger’s seminars.

    “I think this is indicative of an opening and expansion of the discussion, the discussion over Darwinism and evolution generally,” said Bruce Chapman, president of the Discovery Institute, one of the main proponents of intelligent design. “It’s very helpful to our desire to see an expanded dialogue in many quarters.”

    On the other side, scientists and theologians who support evolution say they worry that, even inadvertently, the church may be driving a wedge between itself and science.

    “If for some reason the Catholic Church gets on the wrong side of the science, then it’s going to in the long term do huge damage, just as it did when they went against Galileo,” said Lawrence M. Krauss, chairman of the physics department at Case Western Reserve University and a highly visible opponent of intelligent design. “It threatened their credibility.”

    “Because like it or not,” he added, “evolution happened.”

    The meeting opened Friday morning at Castel Gandolfo, a papal palace that stands as a sort of symbol for the church’s coexistence with science. Castel Gandolfo houses a world-class observatory — with a telescope that Pope John Paul II enjoyed looking through — built a century after the church acknowledged its mistake in condemning Galileo for his postulation that planets revolve around the sun.

    Similarly, the church has moved from neutrality to something like acceptance of evolutionary theory, though drawing a thick bottom line that God is the ultimate creator.

    In 1996, Pope John Paul declared evolution “more than a hypothesis,” and in 2004 as Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope Benedict endorsed the scientific view that the earth is roughly four billion years old and that species changed through evolution. Indeed, there has been no credible scientific challenge to the idea that evolution, the foundation of modern biology, explains the diversity of life on earth.

    Given that history, scientists and church experts say they cannot imagine the study session ending with any alignment of the pope or the church with intelligent design or American-style creationism, which often posits that Earth is only about 6,000 years old.

    “I suspect they will try to avoid it,” said the Rev. Joseph Fessio, an American priest and former student of the pope’s, who is taking part in the meeting, “because intelligent design has been represented either as a religion, which it is not, or as a science, which I think is indefensible.”

    But Father Fessio and others say the pope, based on his statements and writings, remains deeply concerned specifically about the contention among some supporters of modern evolution that the theory refutes any role of God in creation.

    “Given this ideology, the temptation or danger is real to say that you don’t have any need of God, that the spirit doesn’t exist,” said Msgr. Fiorenzo Facchini, an Italian priest and paleoanthropologist. “And the church should keep guard against this and denounce it.”

    Monsignor Facchini wrote an influential article this year in the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, praising as “correct” the decision in January by a judge in Pennsylvania that intelligent design should not be taught as a scientific alternative to evolution.

    Nonetheless he cautioned that the mechanisms of evolution are not all known — and that just as religion has no business in science, science should not overstep its bounds in declaring that God could have no role in creation.

    That is a similar line of thinking presented over many years by Benedict, whose main preoccupation is growing secularism, and it is likely to be a central part of the discussions this weekend.

    In his book “Truth and Tolerance” (Ignatius Press, 2004), written when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, he wrote of what he called an effort to turn evolution into a “universal philosophy” that explained all of life.

    “This evolutionary ethic that inevitably takes as its key concept the model of selectivity, that is, the struggle for survival, the victory of the fittest, successful adaptation, has little comfort to offer,” he wrote. “Even when people try to make it more attractive in various ways, it ultimately remains a bloodthirsty ethic.”

    After John Paul died in April 2005, Benedict signaled a similar concern in his homily at the Mass in which he was formally installed as pope.

    “We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution,” he said. “Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary.”

    But some students of the pope say his doubts go deeper into the science of evolutionary theory. In his writings he has echoed the questions of anti-Darwinians about how evolution can transform one species into another.

    The pope “does not accept at face value the scientific theory,” said Dominique Tassot, director of the French group, the Center for Studies and Prospectives on Science. “He wants to make people reconsider the question.”

    As might be expected from a German professor, all sides of the evolution question will get a hearing, though with an emphasis on skepticism. The seminar on Friday reportedly began with a presentation by Peter Schuster, an eminent molecular biologist, president of the Austrian Academy of Sciences and a defender of evolution.

    There will be three other speakers to the study group, most notably Cardinal Christoph Schönborn of Vienna, who sparked a contentious debate last year after he wrote an Op-Ed article for The New York Times questioning evolution. The article was submitted by the same public relations firm used by the Discovery Institute.

    The two other speakers are Professor Robert Spaemann, a German philosopher who has criticized evolution as a full philosophical theory; and the Rev. Paul Elbrich, a Jesuit priest and scientist whose work on proteins questions whether chance alone could play the decisive role in evolution.

    The pope’s annual seminars do not shy away from difficult topics. Last year the issue under discussion was Islam.
  2. Territories Unknown
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    02 Sep '06 23:35
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Sorry for the Ivanhoic Cut/Paste job.

    [b]Professor-Turned-Pope Leads a Seminar on Evolution

    By IAN FISHER
    ROME, Sept. 1 — They meet every year, the eminent German professor and his old doctoral students, for a weekend of high-minded talk on a chosen topic. For years it was nothing more than that.

    But now the professor, once called Joseph ...[text shortened]... seminars do not shy away from difficult topics. Last year the issue under discussion was Islam.[/b]
    So, like Ivanoe, you have no thought on the topic?
  3. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    02 Sep '06 23:45
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    So, like Ivanoe, you have no thought on the topic?
    He already apologized. What more do you want? 77x7, my friend.
  4. Territories Unknown
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    02 Sep '06 23:51
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    He already apologized. What more do you want? 77x7, my friend.
    That would be the least of things to hold against him. I'm just curious as to his thoughts on the topic. And, last time I checked, it was:

    Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times."

    Although it has been also written "seventy times seven." Just keepin' it real, yo.
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    03 Sep '06 07:08
    Interesting stuff - I'm sure you'll keep us posted on the outcome.....


    Particularly interested on how they steer away from these creationist theories that are a little too extreme. (Light travelled at a different speed in the past etc)
  6. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    03 Sep '06 22:12
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Sorry for the Ivanhoic Cut/Paste job.

    [b]Professor-Turned-Pope Leads a Seminar on Evolution

    By IAN FISHER
    ROME, Sept. 1 — They meet every year, the eminent German professor and his old doctoral students, for a weekend of high-minded talk on a chosen topic. For years it was nothing more than that.

    But now the professor, once called Joseph ...[text shortened]... seminars do not shy away from difficult topics. Last year the issue under discussion was Islam.[/b]
    Sounds like they might accept evolutionary theory - provided they are allowed to skip the bits they don't like.

    So, no change then...
  7. Standard memberNemesio
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    04 Sep '06 04:52
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    So, like Ivanoe, you have no thought on the topic?
    I do have a thought on the topic. I'm glad the Church recognizes that evolution is
    'more than a theory.' Good for her. She is smart enough to realize that the
    denial of 'mountains' of evidence only makes her look absurd.

    Benedict, actually, is a formidable intellect; his knowledge in various different fields
    borders on encyclopedic. Although his papacy is young, I harbor a cautious optimism
    that he will do as much as a religious figure can to divide between the corporeal,
    scientific world and the spiritual world such that the two will not collide in contradiction
    which only serves to weaken the faithful.

    After all, why should belief in a God of love demand the abandoning of rationale?

    Nemesio
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    04 Sep '06 04:55
    ive read a variety of books writeen by Pope Benny. He definately does not support a literal reading of the Creation narratives, so he is not a Biblical Creationist in the form that the American fundamentalists are. One the other hand he is deeply concerned about how some have given the science of evolution its own metaphysics, whereby evolution as a philosophy replaces the need for God. Obviously to a Pope this would be a problem.
  9. Standard memberNemesio
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    04 Sep '06 04:56
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Sounds like they might accept evolutionary theory - provided they are allowed to skip the bits they don't like.

    So, no change then...
    I'm not sure that this is entirely charitable.

    The 'tinker model' of Intelligent Design (while totally lacking in proof) doesn't demand
    the skipping of bits of science. From what I know of Benedict's writings (which are
    voluminous), I don't believe that he would reject scientific conclusions.

    There are many devout Christian evolutionists who look at the Genesis tale as a
    story meant to impart spiritual meaning (rather than history). They have no problem
    divorcing their beliefs from their conclusions. I would hope that the Church under his
    guidance would show similar regard.

    Just my guess and hope, though.

    Nemesio
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    04 Sep '06 05:00
    Rather the Genesis tales as being spiritaul transformations of contemporary epics of the day...
  11. Joined
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    07 Sep '06 01:15
    Just of note - November should see results published - from the Register;

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/05/pope_evolve/

    Pope will publish evolution chat
    Should be interesting
    By Lucy Sherriff
    Published Tuesday 5th September 2006 09:02 GMT

    The Vatican will publish the minutes of the Pope's recent meeting with his former doctoral students in which he discussed the Catholic Church's position on the origins of life, evolution, and creationism.

    The meeting was called, aides say, not to align the Catholic Church with the Intelligent Design camp from the US, but to revive a public discussion of faith and reason.

    Intelligent Design is presented as a counter to the theory of evolution, suggesting that life is too complex to have evolved without a designer, usually understood to be God. Proponents want it taught in science classes, alongside Darwin's theory.

    Father Joseph Fessio, provost of Ave Maria University in Florida, told Reuters that described the session as "a meeting of friends with some scholars to discuss an interesting theme".

    Fessio explained that the conclusion that God created the world is not a scientific position, but a philosophical one. This, he said, is where the Catholic Church differs from the creationist movement in the US.

    He told the news service: "There's a controversy in the United States because there is a lack of awareness of a thing called philosophy. Evangelicals and creationists generally lack it and Catholics have it."

    Pope Benedict has also argued that some scientists go too far in their interpretation of the theory of evolution, and make claims for it that are based on ideology, rather than science.

    Vienna Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn said that the minutes would probably be published in November. ®
  12. Joined
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    08 Sep '06 21:54
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Sorry for the Ivanhoic Cut/Paste job.

    [b]Professor-Turned-Pope Leads a Seminar on Evolution

    By IAN FISHER
    ROME, Sept. 1 — They meet every year, the eminent German professor and his old doctoral students, for a weekend of high-minded talk on a chosen topic. For years it was nothing more than that.

    But now the professor, once called Joseph ...[text shortened]... seminars do not shy away from difficult topics. Last year the issue under discussion was Islam.[/b]
    I really don't understand what the problem is here.
    1) Intelligent design is not imcompatible with evolution.
    2) The Pope is a theist. Of course he's going to believe in Intelligent Design
    3) The Pope is not advocating the teaching of Intelligent Design in science classes.

    What is the problem? Were people expecting the pope to reject ID?
  13. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    09 Sep '06 18:03
    Epistle to the Ohio Board of Education:
    Concerning the proposed Science Standards

    a parody by Tom McIver,
    composed after perusing Alexander Pope’s Essay on Man

    “Creation” now “Intelligent Design”
    Now science tries to ape, and redefine.
    But natural law alone in science reigns,
    No supernatural cause or source it feigns.

    Conceivable disproof its truest sign;
    Its theories are human, not divine.
    DI, IDnet, SEAO: all a ruse;
    To trip us, charm, bewilder, and confuse.
    All are but cogs of one deceptive plan
    To loosen natural law howe’er they can.

    The proper study of ID is God,
    In science class ‘tis travesty and fraud.
    All living things betray a tangled past,
    With mysteries most plentiful and vast.
    Complexity and history conceal
    And frustrate our best efforts to reveal.

    If miracles be given, though, as cause,
    One or a thousand, no more natural laws.
    All life involves a struggle to survive
    Environments non-living and alive.
    Ideas in science, too, compete to best
    Opposing theories tried and put to test.
    Those win that nature proves a better fit,
    Not forced on us by fiat or by writ.

    True science is a still-evolving whole,
    Whose body nature is, our tests the soul.
    A little science is a dangerous tide
    When mixed with human bias, greed, and pride.
    Experimental methods are its rails,
    But mix religion in and science fails.

    No, science cannot tell us how to act
    (Religion, morals, ethics, speak to that)
    Yet science helps to tell us what we are;
    From primal germ, mankind, and distant star.
    We bear true kinship with all life on Earth
    Though facts of ancestry show not our worth.

    Hope oft consoles where science cannot tread,
    Belief connects the living with their dead;
    As faith hath power to soothe the troubled breast,
    Religion doth both drive and help us rest.
    Since oft what is, is not what ought to be,
    Our Bibles from despair may help us free.

    Don’t glibly sneak in God, though, to explain
    What properly is science’s domain.
    God said “Let Darwin be!” and not be banned;
    From any science classroom in the land.
    Ohio, Kansas, every U.S. state,
    Keep evolution in the textbooks straight.
  14. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    09 Sep '06 19:04
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Epistle to the Ohio Board of Education:
    Concerning the proposed Science Standards

    a parody by Tom McIver,
    composed after perusing Alexander Pope’s Essay on Man

    “Creation” now “Intelligent Design”
    Now science tries to ape, and redefine.
    But natural law alone in science reigns,
    No supernatural cause or source it feigns.

    Conceivable ...[text shortened]... sroom in the land.
    Ohio, Kansas, every U.S. state,
    Keep evolution in the textbooks straight.
    Marvellous!
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