power

Standard memberKellyJay
Spirituality 20 Jul '05 03:16
  1. Standard memberKellyJay
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    20 Jul '05 03:16
    1: "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"
    Lord Acton

    2. How rare the player upon whom the lead was thrust unsought.
    For most, the mantle is a prize desired.
    Its desire corrupts.
    For such, a lot is too little, yielding absolute desire, seeking absolute
    power no matter the size of the stage.
    Power reveals corruption since the corrupted desire power.
    CIA bob’s proverb

    Are these saying the same thing, are both true?
    Kelly
  2. Standard memberWulebgr
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    20 Jul '05 03:39
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    1: "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"
    Lord Acton

    2. How rare the player upon whom the lead was thrust unsought.
    For most, the mantle is a prize desired.
    Its desire corrupts.
    For such, a lot is too little, yielding absolute desire, seeking absolute
    power no matter the size of the stage.
    Power reveals corruption since the ...[text shortened]... upted desire power.
    CIA bob’s proverb

    Are these saying the same thing, are both true?
    Kelly
    Frequently, when I have quoted Lord Acton, I (or he) has been corrected: it's not power that corrupts, but the pursuit of power. The second statement expresses this point. Having noted this distinction, however, let me assert that Lord Acton knew what he was saying, and he is correct. Nevertheless, the truth he expresses does not exclude the truth in the other passage.

    They are saying different, although related things. They are both true.
  3. Hmmm . . .
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    20 Jul '05 14:19
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    1: "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"
    Lord Acton

    2. How rare the player upon whom the lead was thrust unsought.
    For most, the mantle is a prize desired.
    Its desire corrupts.
    For such, a lot is too little, yielding absolute desire, seeking absolute
    power no matter the size of the stage.
    Power reveals corruption since the ...[text shortened]... upted desire power.
    CIA bob’s proverb

    Are these saying the same thing, are both true?
    Kelly
    The actual Lord Acton quote is: "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    http://www.bartleby.com/59/13/powertendsto.html

    With that, a couple of questions:

    Are we talking strictly of political power here? (I think Acton was, in the context of who is fit to rule.)

    Who has absolute power? Absolute power would not even need to be defended, would it?—no network of spies, no palace guard, etc. So maybe Acton is talking about a process that approaches a limit….

    Turning it around, I don’t think powerlessness is a virtue, is it? I mean, we don’t tend to think of it as virtuous to seek powerlessness, to disenfranchise ourselves?

    I would say (tentatively, since I’m operating on my fist cup of coffee….) that the desire for power, for power’s sake, may tend to corrupt…. I’ll try harder when I’m more alert.
  4. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    20 Jul '05 14:30
    Absolute power...omnipotence...Wouldn't Lord Acton's timeless words make the Almighty the Totally Corrupt?

    (Won't you fist me a cup of coffee while you're at it 😉 )
  5. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    20 Jul '05 14:42
    Kelly, I think your quotes are true. Along the lines of "don't fight the monsters or you'll become one yourself" and "when you stare down into the hole, the hole stares back at ya" (The Good News Nietszche).



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    20 Jul '05 14:50
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Absolute power...omnipotence...Wouldn't Lord Acton's timeless words make the Almighty the Totally Corrupt?

    (Won't you fist me a cup of coffee while you're at it 😉 )
    Lord Acton's words contained nothing of 'Absolute Power' bestowing individuals with 'free will'...
  7. Hmmm . . .
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    20 Jul '05 14:501 edit
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Kelly, I think your quotes are true. Along the lines of "don't fight the monsters or you'll become one yourself" and "when you stare down into the hole, the hole stares back at ya" (The Good News Nietszche).



    Before we get too far into Nietzsche—his concept of “Will to Power,” he defines as “life enhancement,” really the will to thrive, as well as the will to survive. He often seems to get misinterpreted on that…

    Again, I think we need to clarify what kind of power we’re talking about.

    Tried to send you a cuppa joe, but I think it spilled inside my computer… 😉
  8. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    20 Jul '05 15:05
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Before we get too far into Nietzsche—his concept of “Will to Power,” he defines as “life enhancement,” really the will to thrive, as well as the will to survive. He often seems to get misinterpreted on that…

    Again, I think we need to clarify what kind of power we’re talking about.

    Tried to send you a cuppa joe, but I think it spilled inside my computer… 😉
    Agreed--let's not get too deep into Nietzsche, he's an abyss all to himself. I love him dearly, though.

    I think we're talking about political power, aren't we? Power over other people, in whatever form.

    (My computer drank the coffee and now it's speeding off its head).
  9. Standard memberPalynka
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    20 Jul '05 15:13
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    1: "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"
    Lord Acton

    2. How rare the player upon whom the lead was thrust unsought.
    For most, the mantle is a prize desired.
    Its desire corrupts.
    For such, a lot is too little, yielding absolute desire, seeking absolute
    power no matter the size of the stage.
    Power reveals corruption since the ...[text shortened]... upted desire power.
    CIA bob’s proverb

    Are these saying the same thing, are both true?
    Kelly
    My opinion:

    I think they are quite distint.

    Your first quote says that power will make people corrupt and that the more power, the more corrupt the person would become.

    The second quote says that, in a personal perspective, power is especially advantageous for the corrupted and therefore the corrupted will, in average, seek power more than the honest and with more enthusiasm.

    They are compatible but different.

    It is my opinion, that every system that depends on the goodwill of its leaders will be lead by the least scrupulous of its members. They will be the ones the most prepared to do what it takes to reach power, since they are the ones who can personally benefit the most from it (at the expense of the other members).
  10. Standard memberKellyJay
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    20 Jul '05 16:161 edit
    Originally posted by vistesd
    The actual Lord Acton quote is: "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    http://www.bartleby.com/59/13/powertendsto.html

    With that, a couple of questions:

    Are we talking strictly of political powe ...[text shortened]... ake, may tend to corrupt…. I’ll try harder when I’m more alert.
    I do not think it is just a political thing, people within religion also have
    issues with power too. The 2nd quote touches this when it said that it
    really does not matter the size of the stage. I don't think that power
    corrupts, I cannot find the quote but someone else said that power
    reveals corruption, and that absolute power will reveal corruption
    absolutely. Which simply puts says that the corruption is already
    there; however, if there is no corruption power will do nothing.
    Kelly
  11. Hmmm . . .
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    20 Jul '05 16:43
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I do not think it is just a political thing, people within religion also have
    issues with power too. The 2nd quote touches this when it said that it
    really does not matter the size of the stage. I don't think that power
    corrupts, I cannot find the quote but someone else said that power
    reveals corruption, and that absolute power will reveal corruption ...[text shortened]... e corruption is already
    there; however, if there is no corruption power will do nothing.
    Kelly
    I do not think it is just a political thing, people within religion also have issues with power too. The 2nd quote touches this when it said that it really does not matter the size of the stage.

    I was using politics broadly—as in “the politics of the church,” for example. But you’re right: that’s an important clarification. I think what we’re really talking about here, then, is power over other people, as Bosse noted. The “stage” could be as small as the family.

    If it’s power over other people, then I think that the desire for such power, for its own sake, is probably a sign of corruption. For example, parents may exercise power over their children for the children’s protection; but I have also seen parents who bully their children, and I have seen parents who cannot relinquish their parental power even when the children are grown.

    I think some people crave that kind of power because they are insecure in themselves; they think they have to prove something. There can be healthy expressions of power though—in competitive sports, for example—as long as it’s kept in a healthy perspective.

    power reveals corruption

    That’s a good insight. A powerless person may be corrupt, but if their powerless prevents them from acting on it, it may remain hidden. The more power, and the bigger the stage, the brighter the lights, so to speak.
  12. Standard memberWulebgr
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    20 Jul '05 16:44
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I do not think it is just a political thing, people within religion also have
    issues with power too. The 2nd quote touches this when it said that it
    really does not matter the size of the stage. I don't think that power
    corrupts, I cannot find the quote but someone else said that power
    reveals corruption, and that absolute power will reveal corruption ...[text shortened]... e corruption is already
    there; however, if there is no corruption power will do nothing.
    Kelly
    Who lacks corruption (Romans 3:23)?
  13. Standard memberKellyJay
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    20 Jul '05 17:202 edits
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    Who lacks corruption (Romans 3:23)?
    In Christ's righteousness we all lack corruption, outside of Christ
    we are all corrupt as I read the passages.
    Kelly

    edit: No, righteousness is the topic here not so much corruption, but
    I'd say the Christ lacks corruption.

    Romans 3: 21-26

    21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
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