1. Donationbuckky
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    27 Jun '11 01:19
    Are we all just pretending to have some vague knowledge about an area of life none us know anything about ? The Christian poser, and the atheist poser both claiming to have the scoop. When it comes to religion it's all a game of speculation. Only subjective experience that can't be verified is what keeps people like myself hanging around the subject. We can argue untill we all turn blue, but what we need is a breakthrough in thought or revelation. And then again that comes as a subjective experience, but maybe something large enough would have a transformative effect on the conversation. Don't ask me what that breakthrough would consist of, I'm as much in the dark as the next guy. All I know is the earth needs help if help is to be had. If help is not to be had then we move in another direction. Who knows.
  2. Joined
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    27 Jun '11 01:32
    Originally posted by buckky
    Are we all just pretending to have some vague knowledge about an area of life none us know anything about ? The Christian poser, and the atheist poser both claiming to have the scoop. When it comes to religion it's all a game of speculation. Only subjective experience that can't be verified is what keeps people like myself hanging around the subject. We can a ...[text shortened]... if help is to be had. If help is not to be had then we move in another direction. Who knows.
    ",..but what we need is a breakthrough in thought or revelation."

    Exactly!

    But one thing. The atheist hasn't offered a thing on these boards. How can they? All they can say is "there is no God".

    But on the other hand Christians tell a story of love and redemption, and the offer of eternal life through faith in God's son.

    If you haven't had that revelation, I recommend you do. The transformation is astounding. Then you will see things from within the light.
  3. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    27 Jun '11 17:04
    Originally posted by buckky
    Are we all just pretending to have some vague knowledge about an area of life none us know anything about ? The Christian poser, and the atheist poser both claiming to have the scoop. When it comes to religion it's all a game of speculation. Only subjective experience that can't be verified is what keeps people like myself hanging around the subject. We can a ...[text shortened]... if help is to be had. If help is not to be had then we move in another direction. Who knows.
    Of course you're right buckky. And I suspect that anybody who tells you they 'know' the truth, whatever that truth is, is lying, mistaken or deluded. I think there probably is a kernel of truth in all religions, but sadly I think most believers get so caught up in 'gang' membership of their own particular creed that they often lose sight of that nut. It does make for some hilarious posting however!
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    27 Jun '11 17:12
    Originally posted by buckky
    Are we all just pretending to have some vague knowledge about an area of life none us know anything about ? The Christian poser, and the atheist poser both claiming to have the scoop. When it comes to religion it's all a game of speculation. Only subjective experience that can't be verified is what keeps people like myself hanging around the subject. We can a ...[text shortened]... if help is to be had. If help is not to be had then we move in another direction. Who knows.
    I don't think a breakthrough is to be had, except on an individual basis. We can at least try to continue the discussion on various aspects of spirituality and religion in a thoughtful and kind way, forgiving others and ourselves for occasional lapses.
  5. Cape Town
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    27 Jun '11 17:25
    Originally posted by buckky
    .....and the atheist ....... When it comes to religion it's all a game of speculation.
    I disagree.
    Can we say the same about the belief in Father Christmas? What about belief in fairies? The spaghetti monster? Are those of us who don't believe in the above just speculating? I don't think so.
  6. Standard memberdj2becker
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    27 Jun '11 17:37
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    Of course you're right buckky. And I suspect that anybody who tells you they 'know' the truth, whatever that truth is, is lying, mistaken or deluded. I think there probably is a kernel of truth in all religions, but sadly I think most believers get so caught up in 'gang' membership of their own particular creed that they often lose sight of that nut. It does make for some hilarious posting however!
    And I suspect that anybody who tells you they 'know' the truth, whatever that truth is, is lying, mistaken or deluded.

    Would you also be lying, mistaken or deluded if you told me that you knew the that the statement you made is the truth?
  7. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    27 Jun '11 17:52
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]And I suspect that anybody who tells you they 'know' the truth, whatever that truth is, is lying, mistaken or deluded.

    Would you also be lying, mistaken or deluded if you told me that you knew the that the statement you made is the truth?[/b]
    No. The statement I made is true. I'll write it again with an emphasis so you'll see the sense of it:

    "And I suspect that anybody who tells you they 'know' the truth, whatever that truth is, is lying, mistaken or deluded."

    I can assure you that I do know what I suspect. Obviously I don't know if my suspicion is true, but then, I never claimed otherwise.
  8. Donationrwingett
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    27 Jun '11 19:55
    Originally posted by buckky
    Are we all just pretending to have some vague knowledge about an area of life none us know anything about ? The Christian poser, and the atheist poser both claiming to have the scoop. When it comes to religion it's all a game of speculation. Only subjective experience that can't be verified is what keeps people like myself hanging around the subject. We can a ...[text shortened]... if help is to be had. If help is not to be had then we move in another direction. Who knows.
    The atheist does not claim to have knowledge of anything (pertaining to god). I agree, however, that religion is all speculation and subjective experience which cannot be verified. There is no good basis for accepting a god (or gods) as having a factual existence. Therefore claims for the existence of god must be doubted. Lacking any convincing proof, belief should be withheld and god should be treated as though he did not exist.
  9. Donationrwingett
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    27 Jun '11 20:00
    Originally posted by josephw
    [b]",..but what we need is a breakthrough in thought or revelation."

    Exactly!

    But one thing. The atheist hasn't offered a thing on these boards. How can they? All they can say is "there is no God".

    But on the other hand Christians tell a story of love and redemption, and the offer of eternal life through faith in God's son.

    If you haven't ha ...[text shortened]... you do. The transformation is astounding. Then you will see things from within the light.[/b]
    The atheist says "there doesn't appear to be a god", or "I doubt that there is a god."

    There are many ethical, moral and philosophical positions that can be offered up by an atheist. But none of them is logically contained within his definition as an atheist. If I propose humanism (for example) as an alternative to Christianity, I do so as a humanist, not as an atheist.
  10. Cape Town
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    27 Jun '11 20:18
    Originally posted by josephw
    But one thing. The atheist hasn't offered a thing on these boards. How can they? All they can say is "there is no God".

    But on the other hand Christians tell a story of love and redemption, and the offer of eternal life through faith in God's son.
    So for you, religion is all about selfish desire and what you think you can get out of it? Reality doesn't come into it, only what it 'offers' you?
  11. Standard memberRJHinds
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    27 Jun '11 23:23
    Originally posted by buckky
    Are we all just pretending to have some vague knowledge about an area of life none us know anything about ? The Christian poser, and the atheist poser both claiming to have the scoop. When it comes to religion it's all a game of speculation. Only subjective experience that can't be verified is what keeps people like myself hanging around the subject. We can a ...[text shortened]... if help is to be had. If help is not to be had then we move in another direction. Who knows.
    We got that breakthough with Jesus, the only begotten Son of God.
  12. Joined
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    28 Jun '11 00:47
    Originally posted by rwingett
    The atheist says "there doesn't appear to be a god", or "I doubt that there is a god."

    There are many ethical, moral and philosophical positions that can be offered up by an atheist. But none of them is logically contained within his definition as an atheist. If I propose humanism (for example) as an alternative to Christianity, I do so as a humanist, not as an atheist.
    Muddling the issue again.

    Atheists say "there is no God" all the time.

    I think you're confused with agnosticism.

    Is this choppy enough?

    Do you realise how much consternation you've caused me because you won't play a game with me? I may never get over it. In fact, I feel a whine coming on right now. I may even go out and commit a senseless act of goodness to some hapless fellow in the street. Do you want to live with that on your conscience?
  13. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    28 Jun '11 01:20
    Originally posted by josephw
    Muddling the issue again.

    Atheists say "there is no God" all the time.

    I think you're confused with agnosticism.

    Is this choppy enough?

    Do you realise how much consternation you've caused me because you won't play a game with me? I may never get over it. In fact, I feel a whine coming on right now. I may even go out and commit a senseless act of ...[text shortened]... ess to some hapless fellow in the street. Do you want to live with that on your conscience?
    I'm an atheist. I never say "there is no god."

    I don't play with anything longer than a three day timeout. Change your settings if you want a game.
  14. Standard memberdj2becker
    Tiger's ghost
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    28 Jun '11 19:591 edit
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    No. The statement I made is true. I'll write it again with an emphasis so you'll see the sense of it:

    "And I [b]suspect
    that anybody who tells you they 'know' the truth, whatever that truth is, is lying, mistaken or deluded."

    I can assure you that I do know what I suspect. Obviously I don't know if my suspicion is true, but then, I never claimed otherwise.[/b]
    How about if I make the statement, "I know it is true that I have a mom and dad".Would you suspect that I am lying, mistaken or deluded? And if so, what would you base your suspicion on? Or do you only have that suspicion when it comes to religious matters? If so, why so?
  15. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    28 Jun '11 20:32
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    How about if I make the statement, "I know it is true that I have a mom and dad".Would you suspect that I am lying, mistaken or deluded? And if so, what would you base your suspicion on? Or do you only have that suspicion when it comes to religious matters? If so, why so?
    The truth about your parentage is not the subject of this thread and therefore the post with which you take issue. Apart from that, why would I doubt that you had a mother and father? This is not an unlikely claim. In this instance, I was referring directly to religious matters following buckky's opening post. That said, I would also be sceptical if you claimed you 'knew' the truth about some other unverifiable and magical issue.
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