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Originally posted by sonshipIt is your warped reasoning that I am interested in. Was Jesus' decision not to relieve the suffering of the blind [when he could have done] a deliberate decision and a deliberate act?
This is much like what you are occupied with - nullifying and removing the effect of Jesus as far from you as possible, with warped reasonings.
Originally posted by sonshipDoes the Hippocratic oath say that if a doctor cures one person and then they can ignore the suffering of the other patients? What specific ethical standard is being upheld if a doctor does that?
Are you denying that recovering a man's ability to see was a good thing to do ?
And this man was blind from birth. If a medical doctor did so, would you not consider that an act of high morality ? His or her oath is to do good and not harm. The Hypocratic oath - [...] Focus on "uphold specific ethical standards".
Most people have no problem, I think, noticing that recovering a man's ability to see was a good act.
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Originally posted by josephwSo you don't want to answer the question. Fine.
Is God immoral that He should give an immoral law?
I think stoning and killing a woman for adultery is completely immoral. I can understand that religious people might see adultery as "sin", however I do not see "sin" and immorality as being one in the same. I do not believe there is such a thing as "sin", for obvious reasons. However, I think in many cases adultery involves immoral acts ~ if it harms someone and if it involves deception ~ and therefore I think it is wrong. However, the 'judicial murder' of an adulteress is immoral to an umpteenth higher degree. If you don't want to give a straight forward answer to my simple point blank question, that's fine. You have my answer anyway.
edit: I have reposted a version of this on the thread wolfgang59 has started.
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Originally posted by wolfgang59That one man expressed so much high morality was unique.
But it is [b]you claiming his morality was unique![/b]
He was not only good. He was good gloriously.
He was not just good but good with a kind of dazzling splendor which is unforgetable. Anyone who yawns at such a life is telling me more about his own dullness of conscience.
But if you subtract out (arbitrarily) the miraculous, we recognize the goodness because we notice others have made a go at the same concepts.
Now let's look at some individual acts of high morality which I would argue leave other ethical teachers far behind. Jesus requested that His disciples be exempted from persecution. He did not insist that they be arrested and tortured WITH Him. Though He taught that they should be absolutely LIKE Him, when the most dangerous hour came He did not force them to suffer along with Him.
Here we see that He requests that His disciples be let go and only He be taken for the horrors that await Him.
Then Judas, having gotten the cohort and some attendants from the chief priests and Pharisees, came there with torches and lamps and weapons.
Jesus therefore, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said them, Whom do you seek?
They answered Him, Jesus the Nazarene. He said to them, I am. And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.
When therefore He said to them, I am, they drew back and fell to the ground.
Then again He asked them, Whom do you seek? And they said, Jesus, the Nzarene.
Jesus answered,I told that I am; if therefore you seek Me, let these go away." (John 18:4-8)
I am welcomed to examine any other example of such courage in leadership and willingness to let ALL of one's followers escape, that the leader may face the horrors of opposition alone.
The only name that comes up as a close parallel is possibly Socrates.
I don't recall the pupils of Socrates were in as deep trouble as he was.
And the drinking of poison, I think, would be preferable to the six hours plus of whipping, torture and crucifixion that Jesus knew awaited Him.
"Jesus, therefore, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth ... let these go away. " (v.4,8)
Originally posted by sonshipNobody is suggesting the Jesus character in the bible was not good
That one man expressed so much high morality was unique.
He was not only good. He was good gloriously.
He was not just good but good with a kind of dazzling splendor which is unforgetable. Anyone who yawns at such a life is telling me more about his own dullness of conscience.
But if you subtract out (arbitrarily) the miraculous, we recognize t ...[text shortened]... teachers far behind. Jesus requested that His disciples be exempted from persecution. .....[/b]
Nor is anyone suggesting he was not courageous.
He obviously had strong beliefs.
He did magic.
I want you to show me what great morality he brought to the world.
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Originally posted by wolfgang59I was not suggesting that you were saying any of those things either.
Nobody is suggesting the Jesus character in the bible was not good
Nor is anyone suggesting he was not courageous.
He obviously had strong beliefs.
He did magic.
I want you to show me what great morality he brought to the world.
I gave you an example of His selfless courage in sparing His followers.
You see I do not say Jesus just TAUGHT things.
I say Jesus ACTED out those things that He taught.
I can think of no one who as much WALKED what He TALKED.
Of course others could be found who spoke of high morality.
Jesus expressed in action those messages.
Who genuinely loved His enemies, not only in speech, but in example, as Jesus ?
Now there is one error that I can see you assume. That is that Jesus came to make the world a better place. In other words you expect to see what aids He "brought to the world". His intention is to bring the kingdom of God to the earth rather than supply band-aids for Godless humanistic utopia.
It so happens in His coming to establish the kingdom of God of men and women under the authority of God, as a byproduct, the highest standard of morality was taught.
If you mean "What can we do apart from Jesus to be good people? And that I will maybe accept as Jesus giving to the world something useful for our Godless society."
Jesus's moral teaching often went deeper than the mere outward action to touch the innermost motive. We are not just to not commit adultery. It is far far deeper. We should have the self control to refrain from giving a lustful gaze at a women, engaging in adulterous fantasies.
You have heard it said, "You shall not commit adultery." But I say to you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matt. 5:27,28)
This is beyond the outward good act of not stealing another man's wife. This deeper and more penetrating morality touching the innermost motive and imagination.
It actually requires another Life to get into your human spirit.
Similar penetration is seen with anger. To refrain from the outward action of murder is not nearly enough with Jesus. The murder is already committed in the heart of the man so enraged without cause.
You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not murder, and whoever murders shall be liable to the judgment." But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the judgment of the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, Moreh, shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire. (Matt. 5:21,22)
The words Raca and Moreh are words expressing the worthlessness of a person. The modern equivalents might be Knucklehead, Idiot, Jerk, Scumbag, or much worse and profane names people casually hurl at each other. the equivalent signs of disrespect could be expressed in physical gestures common on the street.
These expressions which denigrate the other person's God given dignity are classed as serious as murder. Such expressions of anger, Jesus teaches, are the ROOTS of the murder.
Most ethicists touch the physical actions performed. Jesus went much deeper to the inward attitude which gives rise to the outward action.
You ask "So what did He give the world?" He gave the world firstly an example of the highest morality. And He gave millions the realization that they are sinners in need of God's salvation.
In the area of covetousness and anxiety, Jesus's teaching is also more penetrating down to the root of man's problem. Everyone feels they are due a certain amount - everyone. Jesus taught men to be able to be without covetousness, envy and anxiety because one is seeking first the purpose of God, His kingdom and its righteousness.
This is living for something greater than yourself which yields great endurance. For few can escape some deprivation on the road of life. Jesus taught that anxiety could be conquered by a living unto something far greater than one's self. God the heavenly Father knows our needs. The testimony of many throughout history confirms how hardship was endured through trust in God and focus upon righteousness.
Jesus also taught a giving which is anonymous, free from self exaltation and bragging, free from showing off, but totally secretive before the only One whose eyes that need to see and and who alone can reward.
But take care not to do your righteousness before men in order to be gazed at by them; otherwise, you have no reward with your Father who is in the heavens. Therefore when you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrits do in the synogues and in the streets, so that they may be glorified by men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward in full.
But you, when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. So that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will repay you. (Matt. 6:1-4)
The common thread in all these teachings, and more, is that the innermost purity of motive is being taught. It is more than the outward action that is important. The SOURCE from deep within the heart must possess the highest standard of morality.
And the reaction a man should have upon hearing much of this is "Lord Jesus, I cannot make it without You. All this requires that You live in me and regulate my being from within by Grace."