Putting the cart before the horse.

I have been accused of doing this by many Christians. This means I have it back to front or I have reversed the teachings of the Bible.

So lets see what Jesus says:

1. Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
2. John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
3. John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
4. John 14:15-16 IF ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever
5. John 15:10 IF ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
6. John 15:14 Ye are my friends, IF ye do whatsoever I command you.

So what comes first according to Christ?
1. If you want eternal life, keep the commandments
2. If you want to be a disciple of Christ, keep the commandments
3. If you want to escape death, keep the commandments
4. If you want the Comfortor/Holy Spirit, keep the commandments
5. If you want Gods love, keep the commandments
6. If you want to be a friend of Christ, keep the commandments

So clearly, the IF condition, specifies that for anything to happen, keeping the commandments come first.

Now I recognise that many Christians dont believe in Christ [amazing!], so I would be interested in hearing where the Apostles preached anything contrary to what Jesus clearly said.

[Note: I will only be responding to well thought out comments supported by references.]

Originally posted by Rajk999
I have been accused of doing this by many Christians. This means I have it back to front or I have reversed the teachings of the Bible.

So lets see what Jesus says:

[i]1. Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
2. John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
3. John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my say ...[text shortened]... interested in hearing where the Apostles preached anything contrary to what Jesus clearly said.

Does salvation begin at judgement?

Originally posted by Rajk999
I have been accused of doing this by many Christians. This means I have it back to front or I have reversed the teachings of the Bible.

So lets see what Jesus says:

[i]1. Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
2. John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
3. John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my say ...[text shortened]... interested in hearing where the Apostles preached anything contrary to what Jesus clearly said.

No one is contesting that Christians should follow the teachings of christ

Originally posted by Rajk999
I have been accused of doing this by many Christians. This means I have it back to front or I have reversed the teachings of the Bible.

So lets see what Jesus says:

[i]1. Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
2. John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
3. John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my say ...[text shortened]... interested in hearing where the Apostles preached anything contrary to what Jesus clearly said.

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Romans 5:1-2

Originally posted by Rajk999
I have been accused of doing this by many Christians. This means I have it back to front or I have reversed the teachings of the Bible.

So lets see what Jesus says:

[i]1. Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
2. John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
3. John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my say ...[text shortened]... interested in hearing where the Apostles preached anything contrary to what Jesus clearly said.

You are beginning to remind me of FreakyKBH for some reason 😵

Originally posted by Rajk999
I have been accused of doing this by many Christians. This means I have it back to front or I have reversed the teachings of the Bible.

So lets see what Jesus says:

[i]1. Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
2. John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
3. John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my say ...[text shortened]... said.

[Note: I will only be responding to well thought out comments supported by references.]

So clearly, the IF condition, specifies that for anything to happen, keeping the commandments come first.

This eerily reminds me of a computer programming language... BASIC. God is not that mechanical with his sovereignty, this only puts him in a box. As an example, Jesus did not even heal the blind in the same way each time (at least how we humans understand it) he listened to the spirit and did what the Father was doing. God is so much larger than what we comprehend.

2 Timothy 3:10-17 English Standard Version (ESV)
All Scripture Is Breathed Out by God

10 You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11 my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Again, God is not a formula, there are commandments to follow... yes! But there is also other scripture that is sufficient for what it means and requires for living the Christian life and being a Christian... it all works together and it is not just about the Red Letters. You sometimes seem to dismiss out of hand a part of scripture if you feel it conflicts with Jesus' words, I would submit to you that perhaps any conflict with other parts of scripture vs. Jesus' words is the lack of understanding on your part.

Now I recognise that many Christians dont believe in Christ [amazing!], so I would be interested in hearing where the Apostles preached anything contrary to what Jesus clearly said.

If it is your belief that many Christians (assuming you are referring to RHP Christians), don't believe in Christ why are you interested in what they would have to say where the Apostles preached anything different than what Jesus said. For me, I don't believe there is any conflict, the message is consistent, where there seems to be an inconsistency is a lack of understanding. BTW, how would you know that Christians (again, assuming RHP Christians) don't believe in Christ. I know you say you don't ask questions and I find it hard to believe that any Christian would volunteer... "guys, btw... I am a Christian but I don't believe in Jesus"... stupid statement.

Believing in Jesus Christ is what a Christian is, anything different is... well... something different.

[Note: I will only be responding to well thought out comments supported by references.]

Way to go with the disclaimer, anything you do not like or is not well thought out (to you)...deserves no response. Nice

As a side note, you really should consider your approach on how you deal with people in this forum. Basic communication is grounded in a give and take approach, ask questions receive questions, offer a suggestion and perhaps receive a suggestion, etc. Food for thought.

Originally posted by yoctobyte

So clearly, the IF condition, specifies that for anything to happen, keeping the commandments come first.

This eerily reminds me of a computer programming language... BASIC. God is not that mechanical with his sovereignty, this only puts him in a box. As an example, Jesus did not even heal the blind in the same way each time (at least how ...[text shortened]... receive questions, offer a suggestion and perhaps receive a suggestion, etc. Food for thought.

Can you justify this:

You sometimes seem to dismiss out of hand a part of scripture if you feel it conflicts with Jesus' words

Please show me what passages in scripture I dismiss out of hand. Thank you very much.

And I will comment on this

I know you say you don't ask questions and I find it hard to believe that any Christian would volunteer... "guys, btw... I am a Christian but I don't believe in Jesus"... stupid statement.

Have you not seen that Christians have stated clearly that the teachings of Jesus Christ do not apply to them and that He is in a separate dispensation? That means that Christs commandments are not applicable to them. Please read and understand what others are saying here before you condemn me.

Nothing of substance in the rest of your post.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Can you justify this:

You sometimes seem to dismiss out of hand a part of scripture if you feel it conflicts with Jesus' words

Please show me what passages in scripture I dismiss out of hand. Thank you very much.

And I will comment on this

[i] I know you say you don't ask questions and I find it hard to believe that any Christian would v ...[text shortened]... others are saying here before you condemn me.

Nothing of substance in the rest of your post.

Have you not seen that Christians have stated clearly that the teachings of Jesus Christ do not apply to them and that He is in a separate dispensation? That means that Christs commandments are not applicable to them. Please read and understand what others are saying here before you condemn me.

I have not and I have condemned none.


As for the rest of your post, nothing worth addressing. 🙄

A horse walks into a bar.
"Why the long face?" asks the bar tender.
"How do we know we actually exist?" came the forlorn reply.
"Well sir, I think, therefore I am."

(An example of putting Descartes before the horse).

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
A horse walks into a bar.
"Why the long face?" asks the bar tender.
"How do we know we actually exist?" came the forlorn reply.
"Well sir, I think, therefore I am."

(An example of putting Descartes before the horse).

Funny one.
So what do you think of Christ "IF xyz, then eternal life" statements
Does it not mean that xyz must come before one can get eternal life?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Funny one.
So what do you think of Christ "IF xyz, then eternal life" statements
Does it not mean that xyz must come before one can get eternal life?

How do you understand atonement old chap?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
How do you understand atonement old chap?

Atonement is the act of Jesus giving his life for the sin which mankind inherited from Adam, and past sins of those who profess to believe in Christ. How do you understand it?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
How do you understand atonement old chap?

An atheist walks into a bar and explains Christianity to Rajk999.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Atonement is the act of Jesus giving his life for the sin which mankind inherited from Adam, and past sins of those who profess to believe in Christ. How do you understand it?

I would find atonement a little squiffy if only applied retrospectively.

Humans are incapable of living free of sin. God, in his omniscience, (and if He truly wanted to save humanity) would surely want every sin atoned for by Jesus dying on the cross, including ones not yet committed.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I would find atonement a little squiffy if only applied retrospectively.

Humans are incapable of living free of sin. God, in his omniscience, (and if He truly wanted to save humanity) would surely want every sin atoned for by Jesus dying on the cross, including ones not yet committed.

Squiffy [first time I heard that word] or not. It is what the Bible says. Christianity does not like it either because pastors make less money when they preach the truth. The rich pastors preach nice sugar coated false doctrines.

The Bible says:

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (Romans 3:24-26 KJV)

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)

Forgiveness is available for some and God will judge who deserves it.
Forgiveness is not automatic and a foregone conclusion as Christians would claim.