Originally posted by Agerg You've dodged the point, people who dress up like super heroes aren't referred to as actual super heroes unless it is believed they have super hero powers. Similarly, especially in Biblical times, people wouldn't have been referred to as sorcerers unless it was believed they could tap into the supernatural; and then, again! since we are supposed to believe the ...[text shortened]... introduced the idea these folk go to hell purely for the lol-factor or they actually existed!
As i pointed out Batman is a super hero and he doesn't have any super hero powers!
and even if you really, in your desperation, wanted to continue this defence then I need only say that people referred to as \"batman\" would at a minimum be believed to be called Bruce Wayne, and live in a cave with a fecking batmobile...just wearing a batman costume wouldn\'t cut it
...now please be so kind to acknowledge and rebut the point I made instead of quibbling over an irrelevant detail *YOU* introduced.
Originally posted by Agerg Well I said spiderman, not batman[hidden]and even if you really, in your desperation, wanted to continue this defence then I need only say that people referred to as \"batman\" would at a minimum be believed to be called Bruce Wayne, and live in a cave with a fecking batmobile...just wearing a batman costume wouldn\'t cut it[/hidden]...now please be so kind to ...[text shortened]... nd rebut the point I made instead of quibbling over an irrelevant detail *YOU* introduced.
its not irrelevant dear Agers, for it illustrates the point well, you need not to have any powers, its the mere act of trying to invoke those spirits which is condemned, whether you have powers or not, whether you are successful or not.
Originally posted by Agerg "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and
murders and immoral persons and [b]sorcerers and idolaters
and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with
fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
(Revelation 21:8 NASB)[/b]
Originally posted by twhitehead I don't believe you. I think you were serious, but don't want to admit to practicing magic.
So, do you believe in similar concepts in other contexts? eg Holy ground, holy relics, blessing objects or people etc?
i dont care if you dont believe, nor do i care if you think i was practising magic, you dont know my motivations, nor have you any way of telling what they are, unless of course you have applied some kind of spiritualist divination. Tut tut, for an atheist like you to apply to the spirit realm, the shame of it.
Originally posted by twhitehead I wonder what "abominable" means in this context.
here is a superlative rendering,
(Revelation 21:8) . . .But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are
disgusting in their filth* and murderers and fornicators and those practising spiritism
and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and
sulphur. This means the second death.”
*two biblical references are cross referenced with this phrase which refers to moral
depravity or lewdness.
Originally posted by Agerg I see...so they cast spells like *raise dead* then? How many hit points do they get when they level up? [hidden]btw, "sorcerers" are more like wizards (who cast fireballs and chit) than crazy people with no magic powers - and lemme preempt the following route: magicians use sleight of hand and simple misdirection, wizards =/= magicians on the other hand are actually supposed to employ proper magic [/hidden] ;]
drop it.
this time you don't have any real debate going on. the practitioners of magic (occult) are vilified here, not because their magic is real or not but because they follow something else rather than god. they put distance between themselves and god and that is why the bible has a problem with them. if they would invoke god when they "do magic" instead of some occult forces (other occult forces) they wouldn't be called sorcererors anymore, they would be priests.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie its not irrelevant dear Agers, for it illustrates the point well, you need not to have any powers, its the mere act of trying to invoke those spirits which is condemned, whether you have powers or not, whether you are successful or not.
No, Robbie...lets address the point I'm trying to make, and keep with spiderman which I said earlier. If you call truly referred to someone as spiderman then you ought to believe they have all the capabilities of spiderman as opposed to wearing spiderman costumes. The same is true for sorcerers - if they didn't wield actual magic then they would be cultists, idol/demon worshippers, and so on...
Again, so I can't be blamed for letting you off the hook as you squirm away with your evasiveness, it is believed by RJHinds and yourself along with other fundies that the Bible is the inerrant word of God; and so either it introduced burning sorcerers in hell just for chits and giggles or they actually existed.
this time you don't have any real debate going on. the practitioners of magic (occult) are vilified here, not because their magic is real or not but because they follow something else rather than god. they put distance between themselves and god and that is why the bible has a problem with them. if they would invoke god when they "do magic" inst ...[text shortened]... es (other occult forces) they wouldn't be called sorcererors anymore, they would be priests.
No can do Zahlanzi, my argument here isn't aimed at a relaxed interpretation of the Bible - it is aimed at the zealots who believe that every damned word of the Bible is inspired solely by god; and that if humans had anything to do with it then they only wrote the words that God willed them to write. As I've said to Robbie, back in the dark ages when the Bible was written, folk of that era will have actually identified "sorcerers" with those who actually do harness magic, and since the Bible is assumed to be inerrant by Bible literalists then God introduced sorcerers (instead of absorbing them into idol worhippers (pentagrams can be considered idols) etc...) either for the sake of redundancy, or because real practitioners of magic and spirit chanelling etc... existed.
Originally posted by Agerg No can do Zahlanzi, my argument here isn't aimed at a relaxed interpretation of the Bible - it is aimed at the zealots who believe that every damned word of the Bible is inspired solely by god; and that if humans had anything to do with it then they only wrote the words that God willed them to write. As I've said to Robbie, back in the dark ages when the Bible ...[text shortened]... of redundancy, or because real practitioners of magic and spirit chanelling etc... existed.
you are reaching.
bible doesn't mention "only punish the sorcerors that actually get results". anyone who invokes the occult(other than god) is considered a witch, even if nothing comes out of the hat.
bible doesn't mention "only punish the sorcerors that actually get results". anyone who invokes the occult(other than god) is considered a witch, even if nothing comes out of the hat.
Yes, but again, over 2000 years ago when they believed the Sun revolved round the earth (which of course was flat and lay smack bang in the middle of the universe), and rain was the result of God watering plants and otherwise killing people that annoyed it (Noah's flood), people would have believed "witches" and "sorcerers" actually did harness the supernatural. As such, given that we are assume to Bible is the faultless word of God we surely have to assume also that the people for whom its words were to benefit should be aware of what happens to *actual* magic wielding sorcerers.
Again, as for those who fail to *pull anything out of the hat* they can be absorbed into other classes of person. If it was written (by those who thought sorcerers literally cast spells and stuff) for hyperbolic effect or otherwise I don't see how one can say God inspired it (the same God which is assumed incapable of lying of course)
bible doesn't mention "only punish the sorcerors that actually get results". anyone who invokes the occult(other than god) is considered a witch, even if nothing comes out of the hat.
So reading the astrology column in the newspaper would be sufficient to land you in hell?
Originally posted by twhitehead So reading the astrology column in the newspaper would be sufficient to land you in hell?
would certainly be enough to entitle others to laugh at you. but yes, basically that's what the bible says.
but you are missing my point. he mocks the fundies because he evisions the bible to believe there are little harry potters out there making all kinds of cool magik. whereas the bible doesn't necessarily believe all who practice the occult have wiked awesome power. the bible only sees a threat in all occult forces not their own.
Originally posted by Zahlanzi would certainly be enough to entitle others to laugh at you. but yes, basically that's what the bible says.
but you are missing my point. he mocks the fundies because he evisions the bible to believe there are little harry potters out there making all kinds of cool magik. whereas the bible doesn't necessarily believe all who practice the occult have wiked awesome power. the bible only sees a threat in all occult forces not their own.
We only need to go back about 600 years in our history to bear out the point that the enlightened people even of those days genuinely did believe in little Harry Potters (along with talking serpents etc...) as they conducted the witch trials (apparently all true witches float in water - regardless of physical build and whether they have a lung full of air or not!)
If the Bible was written by humans the conflict dissapates - if one clings to its inerrancy and the idea it was God-breathed then it doesn't. (Since "sorcerer" will have been distinct from "idol/demon worshipper" and "dabbler in arcane rituals" we understand them to be these days)
Question for RJHinds
31 May '11 09:45
Reveal Hidden Content
Back to Top