Religious instruction without payment.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
How would they pay their fees then?

I'm personally in favor of removing the exemption from property taxes and other taxes that most churches have.

I guess it would be good if it were possible, but I just don't think it would be practical.

I'm a bit confused by your question.

Who is "they" and of what "fees" are you speaking?

Originally posted by josephw
The teachings of Jesus as you represent them are worthless.

It's too bad you keep singing that same old one note song. Even the atheists around here are more open minded than you. I've never had more trouble talking about spiritual things with anyone else as I do with you. You only want to argue. And you can't even do that very well.

I find it extremel ly normal debate. As a matter of fact, why don't you Google "debate" and learn something?

My position of is simple. Jesus taught salvation through righteousness as evidenced by the following:
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever."

"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."

There is no debate because these words are explicit and clear. I imagine that if you or KM could refute these words with the words of Jesus, you would. Instead you and KM have to resort to lies, half-truths, distortions, name calling, etc.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
My position of is simple. Jesus taught salvation through righteousness as evidenced by the following:
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave ...[text shortened]... nstead you and KM have to resort to lies, half-truths, distortions, name calling, etc.

"There is no debate because these words are explicit and clear."

But you are not. I'm am not trying to refute the words of Jesus. That would be stupid. What I do try to do is challenge the way you use them. But unfortunately for you, you don't seem to be able to have a discussion. When I ask you a question, you don't answer. When I make a point, you ignore it. I don't think you even realise that you're doing it. You only sound like a one note song. There's no depth or dimension to your arguments. It's like when you're talking to some one and you know your words fall to the ground.

Try giving the benefit of the doubt to the one you're debating with once in awhile. You're not Jesus you know. You're not perfect. And neither are your arguments. But I'll keep trying for your sake. 😳

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"There is no debate because these words are explicit and clear."

But you are not. I'm am not trying to refute the words of Jesus. That would be stupid. What I do try to do is challenge the way you use them. But unfortunately for you, you don't seem to be able to have a discussion. When I ask you a question, you don't answer. When I make a point, yo ot perfect. And neither are your arguments. But I'll keep trying for your sake. 😳[/b]

As I've suggested to KM and possibly you: If you have something to present then present it.

Thus far, any "points" by you have been through the words of Paul. Why would anyone place the words of Paul over the words of Jesus?

Start another thread if you have something to present.

Here's a hint: Asking me questions doesn't help your presentation.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
My position of is simple. Jesus taught salvation through righteousness as evidenced by the following:

Do you do this?
Mar 16:17-18
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.



Please don't do this if you haven't already tried.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I'm a bit confused by your question.

Who is "they" and of what "fees" are you speaking?

I mean, do you see pastors as having a job outside of church? If not, then who pays for his food?

Who cleans it?
Who repairs the organ?
Who repairs anything in the church?

Are you suggesting all of these are done by volunteers? What if there isn't a roofer in the congregation and the roof is collapsing?

Who pays property taxes?

Any building has costs associated with it.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
As I've suggested to KM and possibly you: If you have something to present then present it.

Thus far, any "points" by you have been through the words of Paul. Why would anyone place the words of Paul over the words of Jesus?

Start another thread if you have something to present.

Here's a hint: Asking me questions doesn't help your presentation.

"Why would anyone place the words of Paul over the words of Jesus?"

Don't you realise what you are doing when you say that? You make that assumption in your own mind when in reality no such thing was ever done. That's why debating with you is so wiry-some.

You should count yourself fortunate that KM and I don't give up on you altogether. We're trying to get through to you. but you are on the defensive all the time. You exude an air of self righteousness, and those who do don't even realise it. That's the boat you're in. You won't accept criticism because you are hung up on your own sense of self importants. Get over it and be objective.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
I mean, do you see pastors as having a job outside of church? If not, then who pays for his food?

Who cleans it?
Who repairs the organ?
Who repairs anything in the church?

Are you suggesting all of these are done by volunteers? What if there isn't a roofer in the congregation and the roof is collapsing?

Who pays property taxes?

Any building has costs associated with it.

Got it. What you were calling "fees", I'd call "expenses". Cultural difference?

Yes, pastors would have a jobs outside of church to pay their own expenses. They would contribute their time out of compassion.

I have to question the whole concept of having a building. Is it necessary for teaching or learning?

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Why would anyone place the words of Paul over the words of Jesus?"

Don't you realise what you are doing when you say that? You make that assumption in your own mind when in reality no such thing was ever done. That's why debating with you is so wiry-some.

You should count yourself fortunate that KM and I don't give up on you altogether. We're se you are hung up on your own sense of self importants. Get over it and be objective.[/b]

If you have something to present then present it. Please start another thread if you choose to do so.

Why is it that neither of you choose this route? Instead you run your smear campaigns.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If you have something to present then present it. Please start another thread if you choose to do so.

Originally posted by josephw
"Why would anyone place the words of Paul over the words of Jesus?"

Don't you realise what you are doing when you say that? You make that assumption in your own mind when in reality no such thing was ever done. That's why debating with you is so wiry-some.

You should count yourself fortunate that KM and I don't give up on you altogether. We're ...[text shortened]... se you are hung up on your own sense of self importants. Get over it and be objective.


"If you have something to present then present it. Please start another thread if you choose to do so."

Don't you realise what you are doing when you say that? You make that assumption in your own mind when in reality no such thing was ever done. That's why debating with you is so wiry-some.

You should count yourself fortunate that KM and I don't give up on you altogether. We're ...[text shortened]... se you are hung up on your own sense of self importants. Get over it and be objective.

Originally posted by josephw
Originally posted by josephw
"Why would anyone place the words of Paul over the words of Jesus?"

Don't you realise what you are doing when you say that? You make that assumption in your own mind when in reality no such thing was ever done. That's why debating with you is so wiry-some.

You should count yourself fortunate that KM and I don't give up ...[text shortened]... you are hung up on your own sense of self importants. Get over it and be objective.

Technical problem?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

I have to question the whole concept of having a building. Is it necessary for teaching or learning?

Well, you have to have the services somewhere.

I'm guessing the pastor could use their own home, but then if they become popular then the living room would get pretty crowded.

I would encourage that kind of thing actually... at least if you're going to go to church, you might as well go to one that is free of charge 😉

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
In the film "King of Kings" with Jeffry Hunter as Jesus, there's a scene where Jesus instructs His disciples to go teach others what He has taught them. One of the disciples asks what they should charge. Jesus simply says, "You have received without payment, give without payment.".

Should religious instruction be "without payment" like the air we breath?

I always taught religion (outside of school) for free, as did all the other volunteers. Any fees the students paid were for supplies.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
In the film "King of Kings" with Jeffry Hunter as Jesus, there's a scene where Jesus instructs His disciples to go teach others what He has taught them. One of the disciples asks what they should charge. Jesus simply says, "You have received without payment, give without payment.".

Should religious instruction be "without payment" like the air we breath?

First of all we must not confuse a typical Church set up with 'religious instruction'.
Secondly, I am not sure that spreading the gospel (what Jesus was talking about in the movie) is religious instruction either.
A Church's primary purpose is to provide a place for people to get together for worship. The cost of building and maintaining the Church is therefore up to all the members to deal with. It is not a case of one person imposing the Church building on another or using the building for religious instruction etc.
Of course there are some Churches which are little more than money making enterprises.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
As I've suggested to KM and possibly you: If you have something to present then present it.

Thus far, any "points" by you have been through the words of Paul. Why would anyone place the words of Paul over the words of Jesus?

Start another thread if you have something to present.

Here's a hint: Asking me questions doesn't help your presentation.

Thus far, any "points" by you have been through the words of Paul. Why would anyone place the words of Paul over the words of Jesus?-----------ToO------------


.

....that's just plain inaccurate. I have spent many posts quoting
" When he the comforter comes he will guide you into all truth" and making points around this. You have not responded at all to it. St Paul did not say these words. Someone else did.