1. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    28 Jun '17 20:131 edit
    In this thread I would like to suggest that the book of Revelation specifically applies first and foremost to the 7 churches. Whether 7 is literal or not is irrelevant at this point. Seven is used as a measure of completeness so it suggest a message to all Christian Saints. Of course anyone can read it and understand it if they wish.

    When the Bible states that Paul is addressing Christian Saints at say the church of Corinth, you can apply it to Christians but you cannot correctly apply all of what he says to the rest of the world. It is common to hear Christians use these teachings to forecast good things for Christians but bad things for nonChristians. The is a dishonest way of interpreting these writings. Paul writes specifically to the churches to which he addresses. Of course there are cases where Pauls statements can have universal applicability .

    Universal applicability can describe the teachings of Jesus Christ. But again there is no hard and fast rule. Common sense should prevail. eg woes to Pharisees are for the Pharisees, although lessons should be learned from them.

    In another thread I posted this. I would be interested in hearing comments on this.

    The book of Revelation was written specifically for the 7 churches. These churches all comprise Christian Saints. Some of these saints were good, some lukewarn and some evil. Over 2 chapters was spent with warning these Christians about their good works and their righteousness. It appeared that they were going astray, and some were quite likely thinking that they would get eternal life even though their works were evil [like some Christians of today].

    The Bible is clear of this fact pertaining to Christians that the Christian who accepts Christ and then reverts to a life of sin is a worse position than if he did not know of Christ in the first place. Therefore an atheist or non Christian is bettor off in the day of judgment than a sinful Christian.

    If there is indeed a lake of fire with real eternal torment then it will be evil Christians who will be cast into that place, not non Christians who were given nothing .. no gifts, no Holy Spirit, no ability,l no Gods Spirit ,,, nothing. It is the Christians who are guilty and it is to these Christians that the warning of Revelation 20 applies... ie names not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire.
  2. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    28 Jun '17 20:14
    The above makes perfect sense as this is the process of being saved, and getting eternal life:
    1. Faith & Acceptance of Christ
    2. Being saved from a past life of sin and evil [Saved by Grace. not of works]
    3. Names are written in the book of life
    4 Christians promise to live righteously in Christ
    5. Receiving of good gifts and special abilities from God
    6. Awaiting the promise of eternal life.
    7a. Judgment - Evil Christians names are blotted out from the book of life, and are cast into the lake of fire.
    7b. Judgment - Righteous Christians enter the Kingdom of God.

    Non Christians do not go through this process.
    They are innocent bystanders in this whole scenario.
    No God worth His salt will ever raise an innocent person from the dead, just to torment them.
    Christians who even think this for a second are very sick people.
  3. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    28 Jun '17 20:423 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    When the Bible states that Paul is addressing Christian Saints at say the church of Corinth, you cannot correctly apply all of what he says to the rest of the world.


    Patently INCORRECT.

    The letter is written to the church in Corinth AND all those who call upon that Lord Jesus Christ in every place, who is theirs and ours.

    Read it carefully.

    "Paul, an called apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Sosthenes the bother,

    To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, the called saints,

    with those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, who is theirs and ours;

    Grace to you and peace ... " (1 Cor. 1:1-3a)


    I am one of those who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus in every place, reading TOO the apostle's letter to the church in Corinth.
  4. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    28 Jun '17 20:511 edit
    Rajk999, as Paul taught in one church he taught for all the other churches too.
    Though of course there were specific local situations, still his general tenor that what he taught for one church was to be the same that he taught for all.

    " Because of this I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloeved and faithful child in the Lord,

    who will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, even as I teach everywhere in every church." (1 Cor. 4:17)


    How then can you argue that what he wrote to the church in Corinth is not for saints everywhere in the other churches the Lord raised up through his ministry?

    And do you seriously think nothing of the letter to the church in Corinth cannot be used by the Holy Spirit to a person in another time and elsewhere ? And that even some unbeliever ?
  5. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    28 Jun '17 20:52
    Originally posted by sonship
    When the Bible states that Paul is addressing Christian Saints at say the church of Corinth, you cannot correctly apply all of what he says to the rest of the world.


    Patently INCORRECT.

    The letter is written to the church in Corinth AND all those who call upon that Lord Jesus Christ in every place, who is theirs and ours.

    Read it ca ...[text shortened]... ame of the Lord Jesus in every place, reading TOO the apostle's letter to the church in Corinth.
    I think you know what I meant. Anyway I fixed it
  6. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    28 Jun '17 21:031 edit
  7. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    29 Jun '17 00:301 edit
    So Revelation says this, and Christians say that some apply to them and some apply to the rest of the world:

    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me,
    to give every man according as his work shall be. [Every man = Christians only]
    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    Blessed are they that do his commandments,
    that they may have right to the tree of life,
    and may enter in through the gates into the city. [Christians only can do his commandments]
    For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers,
    and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. [[Rest of the world are dogs, liars etc]
    I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
    I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
    (Revelation 22:12-16 KJV)


    Jesus only sent this to the churches? But everybody else is going to eternal torment?
  8. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    29 Jun '17 00:47
    And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    (Revelation 20:15 KJV)

    Whosoever means the rest of the world, but Everyman means Christians

    Something good is happening - Christians only
    Something bad is happening - rest of the world.
  9. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    29 Jun '17 07:148 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Jesus only sent this to the churches? But everybody else is going to eternal torment?

    No.
    No more strawman arguments like this one.

    Revelation is the completion of the whole revelation of the Bible.
    It is the culmination of the whole speaking of God in the Scriptures.

    How could anyone imagine that from the first word to the last is not something to be revealed to the world as the other books preceding it ?

    Jesus prayed to His Father publicly in John 12:28 as well as a few other places.
    Do you think there was nothing in this private conversation that was not for others to hear?

    "Father, glorify Your name. Then a voice came out of heaven:
    I have both glorified it and will glorify it again. The crowd therefore, which stood by heard it said that there had been thunder; others said, An angel has spoken to Him.

    Jesus answered and said, This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sake." (John 12:28-30)

    There are many things in the book of Revelation which are for the whole world. And that even though it was initially sent to seven of the probably more than seven churches in Asia.

    Concerning something which is explicitly told us is not for us to know, is what the seven thunders uttered in chapter 10.
    " ... And when He cried out with a loud voice, the seven thunders uttered their own voices.

    And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write, and I heard a voice out of heaven saying, Seal the things which the seven thunders spoke, and do not write them."
    (Rev. 10:3b,4)

    What they said is explicitly told us, that it was none of our business at this time.
Back to Top