Romans Two Natures

Originally posted by @eladar

The problem with I love the lord Jesus to the world is meaningless to those in the world. It is meaningless because they believe in an evil twisting of the word love.

Of course this is all wrong to the world.

Now we are born into this world in a fallen state.
We are use to living in a fallen state.

Now the believer is born again and receives something extra in addition to the life he was naturally born with. He receives Jesus Christ in His form as "life giving Spirit" into the kernel of his being.

However, the believers is not USED to living this new way.
This new living, by Christ blended into his being, is like a salmon fish going against the current. It is to learn to swim upstream against all of our natural tendency.

We have to "set" the mind on that part of us which is mingled with God Himself.
Then we have to learn to log more and more time in that realm.

Telling the Lord Jesus that He loves us, will help to set the mind on the regenerated spirit.
Telling the Lord Jesus that we love Him, will help.

The world regards Jesus Christ as imaginary. And they think our Jesus is dead.
The reality is that He is raised.
The reality is that He is able to impart Himself, astoundingly, INTO our innermost spiritual being.

But this NEW realm, this NEW dimension in the believer is not where we are accustomed to living. So Paul's prayer was that God would STRENGTHEN all the believers into that chamber, into the realm where we are mingled with God.

" For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, ... That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be STRENGTHENED with power into the inner man,

That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith..." (Eph. 3:14-17)

Originally posted by @sonship

The problem with I love the lord Jesus to the world is meaningless to those in the world. It is meaningless because they believe in an evil twisting of the word love.

Of course this is all wrong to the world.

Now we are born into this world in a fallen state.
We are use to living in a fallen state.

Now the believer is [b]born ...[text shortened]...

That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith..." (Eph. 3:14-17) [/quote][/b]

The world regards Jesus' teachings as a lie. There are many here who claim to love Jesus, yet believe in a Jesus of their own creation. Many believe that Jesus is the accepting nice God of the NT usurping the mean God of the OT.

Love to these people means accepting all and being inclusive.

These people don't seem to understand what is important.

The Catholic church was big on bringing in pagan celebrarions and giving them a Christian twist. In the same way these Christians take Biblical names and giving them a worldly twist.

My understanding is that the old sinful nature, also called the "old man" is carnal, sensual.
Some believe the old man is dead because of what Paul stated here...
Rom 6:6
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

Rom 6:11
Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV


But I disagree. It is still there in Christians and a very formidable opponent at that. The battle is in the mind, our life long struggle is to deny the flesh (old man) and serve the "new " man, (Christ in you).
I have heard it said it is like 2 dogs fighting in the mind, the one we feed wins. We have to feed our minds the word of God, walk by the spirit, renew our minds, seek those things which are above and not on the earth.
It is a struggle we cannot win alone. We need Jesus Christ to help us and He does.
We will finally be free of this beast when Jesus returns for His church, but we can overcome it now in a limited sense, but it takes effort, prayer and discipline.
And yes, we should hate sin. Sin has been the destroyer since the beginning. Sin is what has destroyed many hopes and good intentions. Sin is the cause of all our heart aches.
But as Paul boldly declares ...
Rom 7:24-25
O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord!
NKJV

Originally posted by @eladar
The world regards Jesus' teachings as a lie. There are many here who claim to love Jesus, yet believe in a Jesus of their own creation. Many believe that Jesus is the accepting nice God of the NT usurping the mean God of the OT.

Love to these people means accepting all and being inclusive.

These people don't seem to understand what is important.

...[text shortened]... ian twist. In the same way these Christians take Biblical names and giving them a worldly twist.

What you say is true.
The Protestant churches have not fully been free of this influence. They carried much of it over to into the Protestant Reformation.

My focus here is the way of salvation that is revealed in Romans.

Originally posted by @checkbaiter

My understanding is that the old sinful nature, also called the "old man" is carnal, sensual.
Some believe the old man is dead because of what Paul stated here...
Rom 6:6
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

I think of the "old man" as the independent and godless "I".

The body of sin might be unemployed, annulled, made ineffective.

"Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be ANNULLED, that we should no longer serve sin as slaves." (Rom. 6:6 Recovery Version)

The body of sin has not disappeared. But seeing in the Holy Spirit the truth that our old independent "old man" has been crucified with Christ enables us to render that body of sin jobless, annulled, neutralized, ... that our slavery to it could be ended.

It is important to realize that all the facts of Romans 6 must be appropriated by the experience of the Spirit in Romans 8. Romans 7 is something of a parenthetical.

The body of sin needs transfiguration at resurrection and rapture.
Seeing the old man is died and buried with Christ enables us to grow in the way of ending our slavery to the body of sin.

I must include the word "grow" because in Romans 6 the Apostle indicates this exprerience, if normal, should be a growing one:

"For if we have grown together with Him in the likeness of His death, indeed we will also be in the likeness of His resurrection." (v.5)

GROWN TOGETHER in what ?
Grown together in what was stated in the previous verses 3,4.

"Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death ?

We have been buried therefore with Him through baptism into His death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life." (vs. 3,4)

This is Paul speaking as a pioneering enjoyer of Christ. He is leading the way that we also may enter. His experience is that this realization of CO- death with Christ, CO-burial with Christ and CO-resurrection with Christ was a gradually growing, expanding, and increasing one.

"For if we have GROWN TOGETHER WITH Him ... in the likeness of His death, indeed will we also will be in the likeness of His resurrection,

KNOWING THIS, that our old man has been crucified with Him ... etc." (See 4,5)

Rom 6:11
Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

It cannot be emphasized enough. It bears repeating many times.
Our reckoning is based upon our see that we have indeed died with Christ.
We first have to SEE that we have died with Christ. He implores us not to be ignorant of the revelation, of the divine fact.

Seeing that we have died with Christ then we can reckon ourselves dead to sin ... in this area, and in that area, and in another area. In area after area as the experience GROWS.

"... grown together with Him in the likeness of His death ..."

But I disagree. It is still there in Christians and a very formidable opponent at that.

Any formidable opponent is no match for the formidable Christ as the Spirit of Life with His powerful law of life.

"Lord Jesus! This besetting sin is no match for You. Lord Jesus, this weakness is under You feet. Bring me into oneness with You Lord, in spirit. You, Lord Jesus, are my very victory."

The battle is in the mind, our life long struggle is to deny the flesh (old man) and serve the "new " man, (Christ in you).

Perhaps you are shedding some light on why Paul inserts chapter 7 before continuing on sanctification in chapter 8. He wants us to not attack the problem by turning to the law or the struggle to do the right thing. This is self defeating. Sin in the flesh rises up on general principle to rebel.

As if the Sin nature says -

Oh so you are going to be good huh? So you are going to keep the law which is good and holy and just. Well, I Sin will rise up and drag you down, deceiving you, murdering you, making you my slave.

The seventh chapter is a parenthetical. Chapter 8 elaborates that a more powerful Person comes into us. And with His life is a more powerful law, even like the law of gravity. It works every time. it is the law of the divine life of the Divine Savior Jesus Christ.

He frees us when we turn our mind to SET it on the mingled spirit.

"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit [Where the Spirit of Christ is in the believer] is [divine] life and peace." (Rom. 8:6)

I have heard it said it is like 2 dogs fighting in the mind, the one we feed wins. We have to feed our minds the word of God, walk by the spirit, renew our minds, seek those things which are above and not on the earth.

Absolutely, stand upon His word. Feed on His word. Don't trust ourselves but His truth.
Overcome by the word of our testimony, standing upon the divine facts in spirit.
What a noble battle.

It is a struggle we cannot win alone. We need Jesus Christ to help us and He does.

Let's talk about this a little. His helping us by interceding for us both as the Spirit in us and as the Son at the right hand of God in heaven.

What a wonderful Triune God of salvation.

He is IN the Christian

"But if Christ is in you ..." (8:10a)

And He is also at the right hand of God.

"... It is Christ Jesus who died, and rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (v.34)

Originally posted by @sonship

My understanding is that the old sinful nature, also called the "old man" is carnal, sensual.
Some believe the old man is dead because of what Paul stated here...
Rom 6:6
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

I think ...[text shortened]... raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (v.34) [/quote][/b]

We can grow and be more like Christ, but at no point will we escape sin as long as we are alive in these bodies.

Originally posted by @eladar
We can grow and be more like Christ, but at no point will we escape sin as long as we are alive in these bodies.

These bodies actually help us to dive deeper and deeper into depending on Christ in our spirit. if it weren't for the nuisance of the body of sin we probably would not desire to draw close to the Lord Jesus for grace.

You are right that the Christian awaits the transfiguration of his body. This is also called "the redemption of the body" .

In the mean time, what help this body gives us in causing us to HAVE to go to Jesus Christ living in our spirit.

Originally posted by @sonship
if it weren't for the nuisance of the body of sin we probably would not desire to draw close to the Lord Jesus for grace.

Is that why you said, with reference to "sin"... "We do not promise to do better, to improve, to resist harder. No."?

Promising not to try to be a better person somehow draws you closer to your god figure, is that what you are suggesting?

In all my years as a Christian, I don't think I ever heard a fellow Christian express such a strange belief.

Originally posted by @eladar
We can grow and be more like Christ, but at no point will we escape sin as long as we are alive in these bodies.

To what extent do you believe you have grown to be "more like Christ" so far in your life?

Originally posted by @eladar
We can grow and be more like Christ, but at no point will we escape sin as long as we are alive in these bodies.

We can grow and be more like Christ, but at no point will we escape sin as long as we are alive in these bodies.

This is one of the things I found wonderful about the Gospel. I eventually saw that Christ's salvation encompassed my whole entire being.

Not only my entire being - spirit and soul and body, but the environment to - the creation.
That is the creation which awaits eagerly the manifestation of the sons of God.

Originally posted by @sonship
This is one of the things I found wonderful about the Gospel. I eventually saw that Christ's salvation encompassed my whole entire being. Not only my entire being - spirit and soul and body, but the environment to - the creation.

Do you sense that this 'Christ's salvation encompassing his entire being' thing has happened to Eladar too?

Originally posted by @fmf
To what extent do you believe you have grown to be "more like Christ" so far in your life?

You are certainly an inquisitive sort.

Originally posted by @eladar
You are certainly an inquisitive sort.

I expected you to balk at the question seeing as any explicit suggestion by you that you have grown to be "more like Christ" so far in your life would either make a laughing stock of you, or bring this Christ figure you purport to be "more like" into disrepute.

Originally posted by @fmf
I expected you to balk at the question seeing as any explicit suggestion by you that you have grown to be "more like Christ" so far in your life would either make a laughing stock of you, or bring this Christ figure you purport to be "more like" into disrepute.

I balk at you because you are here to bad mouth anyone who espousrs a belief in the Bible.

You are nothing but a self righteous hater who for some reason enjoys annoying people simply to annoy.

Originally posted by @eladar
I balk at you because you are here to bad mouth anyone who espousrs a belief in the Bible.

You are nothing but a self righteous hater who for some reason enjoys annoying people simply to annoy.

Well, I hear what you say, but I believe you balked at the question for the reason I gave.