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    19 Jul '17 15:412 edits
    For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold [m]into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

    21 I find then the [n]principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God [o]in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in [p]the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner [q]of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from [r]the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.



    This is just a jumping off point. Paul writes that we should be slaves to righteousness and no longer sin. It isn't just a should, it is a must.

    It is the very nature of this conflict that divides those who know God from thosr who do not . Those who know God recognize their sin and are ashamed of their human weakness. Those who do not know God call evil good and good evil. This may take the form of believing what us sinful is actually good. This may take the form of saying that even though it is sinful it is still acceptable.
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    19 Jul '17 15:52
    Originally posted by @eladar
    [b] For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold [m]into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the o ...[text shortened]... lly good. This may take the form of saying that even though it is sinful it is still acceptable.
    Have you replied to me on the gluttony texts question yet?

    Nope. 😉
  3. Standard membersonship
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    19 Jul '17 15:591 edit
    Originally posted by @eladar
    This may be a very good thread IMO.
    Great quotations from Romans chapter 7.

    This is just a jumping off point. Paul writes that we should be slaves to righteousness and no longer sin. It isn't just a should, it is a must.


    But HOW does Paul teach us to be these slaves of righteousness ?

    Does he do it by just making us hate sin and hate sin some more and really, really be disgusted with sin ?

    HOW does Paul explain how people can be changed from slaves of unrighteousness to slaves of righteousness.

    I'm all ears now.


    It is the very nature of this conflict that divides thosr who know God from thosr who do mot. Those who know God recognize their sin and are ashamed of their human weakness.


    Romans 7 ends with Paul saying two things.

    "I am a wretched man. Who will deliver me from the body of this death."

    "Thanks be to Jesus Christ"

    Then he goes into Romans 8 about HOW we can become these slaves of righteousness. To be fair he has covered quite a bit also in chapter 6.

    Say a few sentences about the WAY of freedom Paul sets before us.
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    19 Jul '17 16:00

    Those who do not know God call evil good and good evil. This may take the firm of believing what us sinful is actualky good. This may take the form of saying that even though it is sinful it is still acceptable.


    So we can agree that we can start by first calling evil what it is - evil.
    And we can agree that we recognize sinning.

    Does that ALONE bring freedom from unrighteousness ?
    That is not where Paul stops is it ?

    Some people will not confess sinning as sinning only because they know that they cannot DO BETTER. Since they have no hope of changing, they (some) decide rather to embrace sinning and even glory in it.

    When people can see that there is a salvation, some are willing to say - "Aright, there is a way OUT. I confess that I am trapped. Show me the way OUT."

    Look at the closing verses in Romans 7 with the opening verse of chapter 8.

    " Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death ? (7:24)

    Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin. (7:25)

    There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. (8:1)

    For the law of the Spirit of [divine] life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." (8:2)


    Chapter eight goes into the way of liberation. Right ?
    He doesn't stop saying - "You have to realize that what you do is WRETCHED, WRETCHED !! You are WRETCHED !"

    Aren't you glad that Paul didn't stop the letter of Romans with chapter 7 ?
  5. Standard membersonship
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    19 Jul '17 16:061 edit
    The One who delivers Paul from self condemnation is the Spirit of divine Life. That is Jesus Christ in His "pneumatic" form.

    This Spirit of Jesus Christ is a more powerful law than the law of sin and death.

    "For the law of the Spirit of [divine] life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." (8:2)


    I would like to write a little more but the Divegeesters of this Forum will glare at it as "pretentious waffle".

    Anyway, the feeling be wretchedness is a strong disgust with one's self for being a slave to sin in spite of the protest of the good mind that knows better.

    There is no self condemnation (not to mention eternal condemnation from God) to those who are in the realm of the living and available Savior, Christ Jesus.

    Not "pretentious waffle" but what the word of God tells us.
  6. Standard membersonship
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    19 Jul '17 16:141 edit
    Originally posted by @eladar
    It is the very nature of this conflict that divides those who know God from thosr who do not . Those who know God recognize their sin and are ashamed of their human weakness. Those who do not know God call evil good and good evil. This may take the form of believing what us sinful is actually good. This may take the form of saying that even though it is sinful it is still acceptable.


    That is true.

    Paul is saying that there is something he calls the law of his mind. And it agrees with the law of God.

    The law of the mind should agree with the law of God.
    In some people they do not like to know that the mind they have agrees with God's law.

    The problem is with the strength of another law - the law of sin and of death. It doesn't CARE what the mind agrees with. The stronger law of sin and death in the members of the fallen body make the "agree-er" a captive slave to sin anyhow!

    " ... I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and making me a captive to that law of sin which is in my members." (Rom. 7:23)


    This is the dilemma of the man who AGREES that the law of God is right.
    He does not have the life power to DO according to it.

    So he feels wretched.

    "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death? "


    He needs a PERSON. He needs a WHO.
    Only a Divine and saving WHO can set him free.
    That WHO is Jesus Christ in His form in resurrection as the Spirit of Life.
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    19 Jul '17 17:09
    Originally posted by @sonship
    This may be a very good thread IMO.
    Great quotations from [b]Romans chapter 7
    .

    This is just a jumping off point. Paul writes that we should be slaves to righteousness and no longer sin. It isn't just a should, it is a must.


    But HOW does Paul teach us to be these slaves of righteousness ?

    Does he do it by just making ...[text shortened]... lso in chapter 6.

    Say a few sentences about the WAY of freedom Paul sets before us.[/b]
    You ask if we just hate sin, but most people around here believe in accepting sin. One should not hate sin at all. Afterall, hate is inherently wrong. But this is a false Gospel taught by Satan.

    From Romans

    Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
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    19 Jul '17 17:29
    Originally posted by @eladar
    You ask if we just hate sin, but most people around here believe in accepting sin. One should not hate sin at all. Afterall, hate is inherently wrong. But this is a false Gospel taught by Satan.

    From Romans

    [b] Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Ne ...[text shortened]... , faithful in prayer. 13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
    [/b]
    You ask if we just hate sin,


    Sure, we should hate sin.
    The hatred of sin alone will not free us from it.

    Paul mentions hate briefly in Romans 7.

    "For what I work out, I do not acknowledge; for what I will, this I do not practice; but what I HATE, this I do." (7:15)


    What is more significant to our liberation is that Christ condemned this hateful thing. And that condemning of sin in the flesh can work for us in the power of His Spirit of life.

    "For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own son in the likeness of the flesh of sin, condemned sin in the flesh." (8:3)


    Our hatred of sin does not mean that much for our liberation from its power.
    Christ's dying and condemning sin in the flesh is poweful in the Holy Spirit for setting us free.

    Look again.

    " ... God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,

    THAT ... the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit."


    Christ, the life giving Spirit takes up residence in the human spirit.
    One part of our being is actually Christ.
    One part of our being is God Himself.

    It is God joined to us deep in our human spirit - the Holy Spirit JOINED with our human spirit.

    "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)


    The way of liberation is to be strengthened into that realm where we are joined to Christ the overcoming Victor who condemned sin in His death.

    We can utilize the killing power of His death.
    We can utilize the resurrection power of His eternal life in our spirit.
    We can learn to WALK by the mingled and joined spirit where the Spirit of Christ is in us.
  9. Standard membersonship
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    19 Jul '17 17:311 edit
    To hate sin more and more is not that effective.
    It counts some.
    Don't put too much confidence in it.

    To receive Jesus Christ and learn to WALK ... step by step in the sphere of His indwelling life, that leads to fulfilling the righteous requirement of the good law of God.
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    19 Jul '17 17:35
    Originally posted by @sonship
    To hate sin is not that effective.

    To receive Jesus Christ and learn to WALK ... step by step in the sphere of His indwelling life, that leads to fulfilling the righteous requirement of the good law of God.
    To hate sin is a command from God. If you say otherwise, you believe a false Gospel.

    But it is just one side. We are to love as well.

    Most people say, how can you love and hate at the same time? If you can't understand it then you are either a young Christian or a Child of Satan.
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    20 Jul '17 01:58
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
    Do you do ANY of these things?
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    20 Jul '17 02:05
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    Do you do ANY of these things?
    Sure I do.

    Do you believe that Christians are to live righteously and agree with God about what is sinful?
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    20 Jul '17 12:081 edit
    Originally posted by @eladar
    To hate sin is a command from God. If you say otherwise, you believe a false Gospel.

    But it is just one side. We are to love as well.

    Most people say, how can you love and hate at the same time? If you can't understand it then you are either a young Christian or a Child of Satan.
    To hate sin is a command from God. If you say otherwise, you believe a false Gospel.


    But I don't believe otherwise. So there is no problem there.

    The way of liberation and freedom is quite extensively elaborated on by God's servant the Apostle Paul. That is what I need. That is what others need too.


    But it is just one side. We are to love as well.


    Amen. Specifically we must love the Lord Jesus. "Lord Jesus, I LOVE You" spoken to the Lord will really help to set the mind on the regenerated spirit.

    In the heat of temptation, how effective it is for the Christian to just call out in any way he can, whether loudly or softly - " Lord Jesus. Lord I LOVE You."

    And His grace will begin to flow from the innermost being - empowering, enabling, and strengthening.

    " For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is [divine] life and peace." (Rom. 8:6)
  14. Standard membersonship
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    20 Jul '17 12:08

    Most people say, how can you love and hate at the same time? If you can't understand it then you are either a young Christian or a Child of Satan.


    Romans chapter 7 gives a diagnosis of man's problem in such a superb way. And there we see that actually as fallen people our predicament is rather complicated.

    There is a "law" of God outside and above man.
    There is a "law" of the mind which essentially AGREES with God's law.

    But it gets more complicated.
    There is a "law of sin and death" in the fallen body, in the members.
    It is too powerful for the man who agrees with God's law yet is driven to do the things he hates to do anyway.

    "I hate this but I DO it." Don't you agree that this is kind of complicated?

    But we are not finished with man's plight in this basic book of Christian doctrine.
    There is a salvation. It is to discover a STRONGER "law". This is a "law" of a mysterious yet living and available Person. This Person has a stronger life with a stronger law than the law of sin and death.

    This Person can LIVE IN US. Now this is a bit complex in Romans 7 and 8.

    The secret is that the STRONGER law of the Spirit of life ... in Christ Jesus is more powerful to overcome the "law of sin and death" which resides in the fallen body.

    The stronger law of divine life can therefore eliminate the wretched sense of self condemnation. Hallelujah. Praise the Lord for this!

    "There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus."


    " Lord Jesus. I love You. Lord Jesus I am IN You. Lord Jesus You are in me. Praise You Lord. You are the strong LAW OF LIFE ... DIVINE LIFE living in my spirit. Free me Lord! Free me now! "
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    20 Jul '17 14:15
    Originally posted by @sonship
    To hate sin is a command from God. If you say otherwise, you believe a false Gospel.


    But I don't believe otherwise. So there is no problem there.

    The way of liberation and freedom is quite extensively elaborated on by God's servant the Apostle Paul. That is what I need. That is what others need too.


    But it is just one si ...[text shortened]... h is death, but the mind set on the spirit is [divine] life and peace." (Rom. 8:6)
    [/b]
    The problem with I love the lord Jesus to the world is meaningless to those in the world. It is meaningless because they believe in an evil twisting of the word love.
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