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The word saved and the concept of salvation is used in the New Testament in more than just one way.
It is used as relating to the believer's passed. That is an an accomplished fact.
It is used in relation to the present as an ongoing process.
It is used in relation to a future time when it will occur.
In this thread I will deal with some of these different nuances because in not understanding them some people are confused and even teach wrongly.
Each example will be preceded by one of the words Past, Present, or Future.
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Here is a powerful example of saved as related to the believer's past.
Salvation PAST - " For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works that no one should boast." (Eph. 2:8,9)
The believing sinner may not boast that he was saved by works. But he can boast that he WAS saved. In the past he opened his heart in faith in Jesus Christ and was SAVED.
No one can rob the believer of this fact. At some point in the past he received the gift of God. He was saved yet not of any works of his own, but through faith.
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Salvation PRESENT and FUTURE -
"For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Romans 5:10,11)
This passage actually relates to all three - past, present and future salvation.
As to the past -"having BEEN reconciled", the former "enemies" were reconciled.
Having already been reconciled to God (through the death of Christ) there is something much more awaiting them in this present remaining time and as to the future -
" ... much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled"
There is something much more to go on to now that he has been reconciled. He will be saved in the whole sphere and realm of the life of Christ. This means Christ has been imparted into him. Christ has come to live in Him. Christ has joined Himself to him. Why? That the reconciled sinner may have a salvation as a process in the ongoing presence of Jesus. Much more he will be saved today, tomorrow, and in the future in the realm of the indwelling life of Jesus Christ.
I have been reconciled to God. I am presently enjoying the daily, moment by moment salvation in the sphere of His divine life.
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Salvation PRESENT
"So then, my beloved, ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12,13)
This is about the believer who has already received the life of Christ into his being - "For it is God who operates in you ...".
He has been eternally saved because he has been born of God and God is within him. But he needs a salvation from many evil moods, bad habits, divisiveness, murmurings, complainings, anxiety, etc as to daily life.
God is operating in him. He must cooperate. God operates and he cooperates. God is operating within him both the willing and the working. IN a utterly blended and mingled way - he cooperates with God to work out his own salvation.
The next passage says "Do all things without murmurings and reasonings." (v.14)
The working of this salvation is therefore the ongoing processs of being delivered from discontent, complaining, rationalizing reasonings which give rise to dissent, arguing, divisiveness in the Christian church.
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
The need is serious. It is not to be taken for granted. Murmurings, reasonings, anxiety, discords must be overcome and swallowed up in the enjoyment of Jesus Christ.
To appear before the Lord with these evil moods still remaining in the soul will not be good. So the Christian must utilize the time allotted to him to "work out" his own private salvation. Taken it seriously he should cooperate with fear and trembling that his soul remain untransformed.
In this ongoing salvation of the present, he will join those maturing Christians who are lights to the world in the midst of corruption -
"That you may be blameless and guileless, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as luminaries in the world ..." (v.15)
This passage also speaks of boasting but in a positive way. The Apostle Paul predicts that he will be able to boast before Jesus Christ about how the life of Jesus Christ has so transformed the souls of those under his care.
"Holding forth the word of life, so that I may have a boast in the day of Christ that I did not run in vain nor labor in vain." (v.16)
Originally posted by sonshipYour doctrine is of the devil and contrary to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.
Salvation PRESENT
[b]"So then, my beloved, ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12,13)
This is about the believer who has already received the life of Christ into his being - "For it is God who operates in you ..." ...[text shortened]... may have a boast in the day of Christ that I did not run in vain nor labor in vain." (v.16) [/b]
Christ and the Apostles preached the following :
1. Faith in Jesus Christ is the start of your life in Christ
2. Faith must be demonstrated with humility by a life of love, good works and charity
3. Those enduring to the END will be saved - enduring means following Christ commandments.
4. Those who follow Christ are his disciples and not just those who profess to know Christ with their mouth which is condemned by Christ.
5. There are many professing faith, who will fall away and they will not be saved in the end.
6. Sin and worldliness means that you are living in the flesh and not living in the spirit.
Your doctrine encourages sin, worldiness, evil works and boasting that "I AM SAVED" .."IM A SINNER' ... what foolishness !!
Christ said that his disciples must be a LIGHT TO THE WORLD and be the SALT OF THE EARTH.
Your doctrine makes a mockery of everything Jesus stood for. How can you say that believe in the man and then deny His teachings?
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Rajk999, Good you came by. It will help me deal with passages which heretics sometimes used to teach an antichrist teaching.
My replies will insist on being geared toward the subject of the thread.
Christ and the Apostles preached the following :
1. Faith in Jesus Christ is the start of your life in Christ
Where did I say that this was not so ? Nowhere.
Better still faith in Jesus Christ is the start of Christ's eternal life within the believer. Faith in Christ brings the living available Jesus Christ into the believer.
This is why Paul told the believers in Corinth to test themselves to be assured that Jesus Christ as in them.
"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith: prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor. 13:5)
To be "in the faith" therefore is to have the resurrected, living and available Jesus Christ within you." [/b]
He can come into the believe forever because He became a life giving Spirit -
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
2. Faith must be demonstrated with humility by a life of love, good works and charity
Where did I write that faith should not do so?
"By grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith ..." simply says that.
Your second point does not contradict Ephesians 2:8. It only shows that God has priorities beyond simply saving the man.
"By faith you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Not of works that no one should boast."
Nothing here says that God does not care about the way you live or the works you do after being saved. You are forcing a contradiction where there is none. It simply says it was not of works that the man was saved.
It does not say that God cares nothing for works. It merely says that the Christians are not saved through these works as to eternal redemption. In fact the very next sentence emphasizes that the reason the person was SAVED was for good works of walking in Christ.
For we are His masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before hand in order that we should walk in them." (v.10)
1.) NOT saved through works.
2.) Created in Christ Jesus for good works.
3. Those enduring to the END will be saved - enduring means following Christ commandments.
This is good point to speak of Salvation - FUTURE. You are alluding of course to Matthew 24:13.
In elaborating to the His disciples about the intense troubles and persecutions of the last days Jesus says -
"But he who has endured to the end, this one will be saved." (24:13)
The passage should be compared to Matthew 10:22 which is like it:
"And you will be hated by all because of My name. But he who endured to the end, this one will be saved."
This aspect of future being saved is not the same as mentioned in Ephesians 2:8 above. Here, to be saved may mean to be saved from those who hate us [the Christians] into the coming millennial kingdom age. The kingdom of the heavens in Matthew definitely has its future aspect as a reward to those already eternally redeemed. Ie. those already saved through grace through faith and not of works, will (especially but not only) pass through persecutions. If they endure they will be rewarded with the millennial kingdom of 1,000 years whic immediately follows the great tribulation.
This usage of saved is definitely future - " ... will be saved" and it does not contradict Ephesians 2:8 at all.
4. Those who follow Christ are his disciples and not just those who profess to know Christ with their mouth which is condemned by Christ.
The shortest way to answer this objection is perhaps with Second Timothy 2:19.
"However the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those who are his, and Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness." (2 Tim. 2:19)
This seal of God and firm foundation of Christian truth has two parts:
1.) The Lord KNOWS those who are His.
2.) Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.
Firstly, according to the divine life God knows who are the human beings who have received His life. He knows who is born of God. He knows who has the eternal life. We may not always know. But the begetting Divine Father always knows.
Secondly, there is an exhortation. Everyone who names the name of the Lord as his Lord is exhorted to depart from unrighteousness.
1.) The begetting Lord knows those who are His children even if we do not always know.
2.) Everyone professing the Lord Jesus Christ should depart from unrighteousness.
5. There are many professing faith, who will fall away and they will not be saved in the end.
This is not the difference between one eternally saved and one not. This is the difference between an overcoming Christian and a defeated Christian.
An overcoming Christian will be rewarded in the millennial kingdom of 1,000 years with co-reigning with Christ. The defeated Christian will miss this reward but will still be saved yet so as through fire.
"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation [Jesus Christ] , he will receive a reward;
If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)
The overcoming Christian is normal, not above the standard, but just at what is expected of him. He will receive a reward.
The defeated Christian will "suffer loss". What is the "loss" he will suffer ? It is not the loss of eternal redemption. It is not the loss of eternal life. It is the loss of reward during the millennial kingdom.
The irrefutable reason we know that this defeated believer will not lose eternal salvation is as plain as the nose on your face. It says so -
" ... he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved ..."
You have no case, no argument, no reasoning which can defeat these plain words.
Some believers will suffer loss. But it is NOT the loss of eternal salvation because they will be saved "yet so as through fire".
6. Sin and worldliness means that you are living in the flesh and not living in the spirit.
Nowhere did I really say ANYTHING to contradict this statement. The New Testament is clear that the believer can be carnal, immature, fleshy, or fleshly. He is saved eternally but he has not been saved in his daily walk. Though he is born of the Spirit he has not learned to walk in the Spirit.
Of course to walk in the Spirit is a priority with God. And no emphasizing of Ephesians 2:8 means that God does not CARE about Romans 8 about walking in the Spirit.
A good verse to clarify this is Galatians 5:25 -
"If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." (Gal. 5:25)
The Christians was given new life by the Holy Spirit. He was regenerated. He was born again. He was born of the Spirit to possess as new life.
If we Christians were so given this new life, let us also walk by the new life we were given. Let us not be defeated, continuing to walk by the old nature. Let us grow, mature, develop as ANY new life should normally do.
"If we LIVE by the Spirit, let us ALSO walk by the Spirit."
Another passage like this is Colossians 2:6
"As therefore you have received Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in Him." (Col. 2:6)
As to the PAST the believer has RECEIVED Christ already. He is eternally redeemed. He is eternally born of God.
Having received Him, let the Christian go on to walk in Him . That is step by step, in the practical daily life live out the indwelling Christ whom he has received. It attitude, speech, actions, reactions, we learn to "walk in Him".
Your doctrine encourages sin, worldiness, evil works and boasting that "I AM SAVED" .."IM A SINNER' ... what foolishness !!
This is not just my doctrine. It is what I have lived and am learning to live. It is a life long process of maturity. And the way we teach does NOT encouage sin, worldliness, and evil works at all.
Rather it encourages growing, maturing, learning to walk in Christ, learning to live in Christ, looking to the millennial kingdom reward, and thanking God that you have been saved so that you can live and express Christ.
Christ said that his disciples must be a LIGHT TO THE WORLD and be the SALT OF THE EARTH.
Nothing I wrote contradicts that Christ exhorted His disciples that they are the light of the world and the salt of the earth.
He goes on to say that the one who has lost saltiness is not fit for two things:
Luke 14:34,35 - "Therefore salt is good; but if even the salt becomes tasteless, with what will its saltiness be restored? It is fit neither for the land nor for the manure pile; they throw it out. He who has an ear to hear, let him hear."
1.) The manure pile is the eternal damnation. The defeated Christian who has lost his saltiness is not good for eternal damnation (the unclean place of eternity).
2.) The land signifies the church. They are not fit for the church because the church is God's land upon which He grows Christ in people (1 Cor. 3:9).
Being not fit for eternal unclean place such as hell on one hand, and also being not fit for the proper New Testament church life, they will lose the reward when Christ returns. They will suffer the loss of being cast out.
They will be thrown out of the coming millennial kingdom, but they are still saved yet.....
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cont.
They will be thrown out of the coming millennial kingdom, but they are still saved yet so as through fire. It all adds up perfectly.
Your doctrine makes a mockery of everything Jesus stood for. How can you say that believe in the man and then deny His teachings?
You have shown nowhere where I have denied His teachings.
I have affirmed them and the teaching of the apostles.
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The believers in Jesus are the salt of the earth, says the Lord Jesus. And He also says this:
Luke 14:34,35 - "Therefor salt is good; but if even the salt becomes tasteless, with what will its saltiness be restored? It is fit neither for the land nor for the manure pile; they will throw it out..."
"The believers in Christ are the salt of the earth used by God to kill and eliminate the earth's corruption. Their taste depends on their renouncing of earthly things. The more they renounce the things of earth, the more powerful will be their taste. They will lose their taste by not being willing to renounce all the things of the present life. If this happens, they will be fit neither for the land, signifying the church as God's farm (1 Cor. 3:9), which issues in the coming kingdom (Rev. 21:8; 22:15). They will be thrown out from the kingdom of God, especially from the glory of the kingdom in the millennium .... They are saved from eternal perdition, but because they have faled to renounce the earthly things they lose their function in the kingdom of God, thus being unfit for the coming kingdom and needing to be put aside for discipline ..." [ Footnote 14:34(2) Recovery Version Luke 14:34)
Originally posted by sonshipThanks .. all I read is the 'good you came by ..' part.
cont.
They will be thrown out of the coming millennial kingdom, but they are still saved yet so as through fire. It all adds up perfectly.
Your doctrine makes a mockery of everything Jesus stood for. How can you say that believe in the man and then deny His teachings?
You have shown nowhere where I have denied His teachings.
I have affirmed them and the teaching of the apostles.
Not reading any further. But Christ made His doctrine perfectly clear.
Not sure why people like you think it is necessary to speak for Christ.
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Originally posted by Rajk999I knew that you would not last too long. I expected you to drop out as before. Plainly, you are not able to refute the better presentation of the council of God in the more accurate way.
Thanks .. all I read is the 'good you came by ..' part.
Not reading any further. But Christ made His doctrine perfectly clear.
Not sure why people like you think it is necessary to speak for Christ.
Goodbye.
Originally posted by sonship'Council of God' ? ??
I knew that you would not last too long. I expected you to drop out as before. Plainly, you are not able to refute the better presentation of the council of God in the more accurate way.
Goodbye.
Your doctrine represents the "Council of God'?
Goodbye pal .. Im outahere. .. my last post to you.
Originally posted by Rajk999We are not saying to forget about doing good works. Obviously God wants us to do good works if we can. But the most important part is to acknowledge and confess your sins and realize that you are deserving of punishment and death and turn from sin and believe and have faith in Christ Jesus to save your soul from hell so you can be with Him in paradise too, like the thief beside Jesus on the cross.
'Council of God' ? ??
Your doctrine represents the "Council of God'?
Goodbye pal .. Im outahere. .. my last post to you.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
'Council of God' ? ??
Your doctrine represents the "Council of God'?
Goodbye pal .. Im outahere. .. my last post to you.
'Council of God' ? ??
Your doctrine represents the "Council of God'?
Goodbye pal .. Im outahere. .. my last post to you. [/quote]
That was a small c I used not a captial C.
, you are not able to refute the better presentation of the council of God in the more accurate way.
You can surely say goodbye to me.
You cannot so easily say goodbye to First Corinthians 3:13-15
" The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work of what sort it is.
If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.
If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, BUT HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, yet so as through fire." [my emphasis]
Originally posted by RJHindsIf you can?
We are not saying to forget about doing good works. Obviously God wants us to do good works if we can. But the most important part is to acknowledge and confess your sins and realize that you are deserving of punishment and death and turn from sin and believe and have faith in Christ Jesus to save your soul from hell so you can be with Him in paradise too, like the thief beside Jesus on the cross.
Have a reference for that?