Science and Miracles

Originally posted by vishvahetu
Its true, atheistic science has thrown God out of the equation of life.

But true science which you dont subscribe to, actually recognizes the spiritual factor in life, which with out there is no life at all.

Vedanta Sutra is the highest science....the science of life.

You are a pseudo science person, because you reject the spiritual factor, which ...[text shortened]... into account all factors and not be biased in their investigative approach. (that is dishonest)

"Its true, atheistic science has thrown God out of the equation of life."

Not true. There is no such thing as "atheistic science". Science is science.

The problem is with people. People think science has uncovered evidence for evolution which is at variance with the Biblical account of the origin of things.


Just can't stay away can you? It's addictive.

Originally posted by rwingett
That's what I was getting at. Whether "miracle" is defined as a violation of physics, or as merely an extremely unlikely, but fortuitous, event. If the definition of "miracle" cannot be made precise, then it could not be studied due to its incoherence.

Creation of matter and the Creation of life.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
I define 'miracle' as something that happens despite the laws of physics. Therefore its existance cannot be proven by science.

Miracle is a religious phenomenon. Religion and science cannot be mixed.

Well it should be possible to at least document a 'miracle'. For instance in the Bruce Willis movie '5th element', an asteroid comes down to earth and comes to a dead stop a few miles from impact. If that were to happen in reality, and there was no super science going on, such an event might be classified as a miracle.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
Its true, atheistic science has thrown God out of the equation of life.

But true science which you dont subscribe to, actually recognizes the spiritual factor in life, which with out there is no life at all.

Vedanta Sutra is the highest science....the science of life.

You are a pseudo science person, because you reject the spiritual factor, which ...[text shortened]... into account all factors and not be biased in their investigative approach. (that is dishonest)

Really, vishva, you have to know about science to be able to debate about it. You don't. Therefore every discussion about science with you is futile.

You think that if you can insult people to stop debating, then you must have the truth on your hand. You are wrong in this.

The world is not revolving around you and your person. You are not a god, knowing everything. Go ask your doctor for a better dosage for your drugs. You show severe clinical narcisism.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Its true, atheistic science has thrown God out of the equation of life."

Not true. There is no such thing as "atheistic science". Science is science.

The problem is with people. People think science has uncovered evidence for evolution which is at variance with the Biblical account of the origin of things.


Just can't stay away can you? It's addictive.[/b]

“...The problem is with people. People think science has uncovered evidence for evolution ...”

that's because they have:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topicbrowse2.php?topic_id=46

“...which is at variance with the Biblical account of the origin of things. ...”

Only for those theists that take the words of the scriptures literally rather than take it as a kind of metaphoric poetry.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Well it should be possible to at least document a 'miracle'. For instance in the Bruce Willis movie '5th element', an asteroid comes down to earth and comes to a dead stop a few miles from impact. If that were to happen in reality, and there was no super science going on, such an event might be classified as a miracle.

I disagree. We might posit that there exists superior alien technology capable of such amazing phenomena which seemingly violate the laws of nature. That explanation would be entirely naturalistic and would completely rule out a miracle.

Now in the history of hagiographic writing, there is a very sizable catalog of putative miracles, boulders cleaving apart, wounds spontaneously sewing together, the sun entirely stopping in the sky, etc. Now in these cases, we might be baffled to find an ordinary scientific explanation. An open wound suddenly sewing could not be attributed to some power of the human body -- but there is still quite a distance from the conclusion that God was responsible.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I disagree. We might posit that there exists superior alien technology capable of such amazing phenomena which seemingly violate the laws of nature. That explanation would be entirely naturalistic and would completely rule out a miracle.

Now in the history of hagiographic writing, there is a very sizable catalog of putative miracles, boulders cle ...[text shortened]... human body -- but there is still quite a distance from the conclusion that God was responsible.

If the sun seems to be stopped in the sky (at that time people believed that the sun orbited the earth, now science says that it is in fact the rotation of the Earth that make it seems like that), then it would take enormous amount of energy to stop the rotation of the entiere planet, causing wild tectonic effects, making the oceans flow all over land, and make all the crust melt, and the same thing again when 'sun retook its previous path'.

If sun stopped like the scripture says, it would wipe out the life from earth entirely. Only a miracle would have saved us all.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
If the sun seems to be stopped in the sky (at that time people believed that the sun orbited the earth, now science says that it is in fact the rotation of the Earth that make it seems like that), then it would take enormous amount of energy to stop the rotation of the entiere planet, causing wild tectonic effects, making the oceans flow all over land, an says, it would wipe out the life from earth entirely. Only a miracle would have saved us all.

Sorry, the one I had meant to mention was the miracle of Fatima, in which the sun supposedly changed colour and moved throughout the sky.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

Originally posted by FabianFnas
If the sun seems to be stopped in the sky (at that time people believed that the sun orbited the earth, now science says that it is in fact the rotation of the Earth that make it seems like that), then it would take enormous amount of energy to stop the rotation of the entiere planet, causing wild tectonic effects, making the oceans flow all over land, an says, it would wipe out the life from earth entirely. Only a miracle would have saved us all.

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If the sun seems to be stopped in the sky (at that time people believed that the sun orbited the earth, now science says that it is in fact the rotation of the Earth that make it seems like that), then it would take enormous amount of energy to stop the rotation of the entiere planet, causing wild tectonic effects, making the oceans flow all over land, and make all the crust melt, and the same thing again when 'sun retook its previous path'.

If sun stopped like the scripture says, it would wipe out the life from earth entirely. Only a miracle would have saved us all.
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There are two instances of miracles involving the sun in Scriptures. One is with Joshua's long day in the book of Joshua. And I think the other is in Isaiah with Hezekiah's dun dial shadow moving backwards.

Both to my sense are astounding. And like many other unusual things in the Bible, they come in pairs. The double occurence of signs or miracles seems an often repeated scheme in the Bible. This has always been perculiar to me.

It is as if God were saying "That's right. You heard me right the first time. The SUN did this unusual thing."

This scheme of a double occurence of some miraculous event always makes me feel as if there is intelligence in the record, purposeful, deliberate intelligence. I am pursuaded that this is one of many indications of divine inspiration in the Bible.

As for the solar events themselves, it seems easier today to believe something like this could happen then in times past. We read that black holes bend star light. We read that around the event horizon of a black hole the light does unusual things in circling around the black hole. This is like the distortion of a glass lense.

Now, suppose that God used a small black hole to enter the solar system and temporarily distort or bend the sunlight to appear to do strange things on the earth ?


All I am saying here is that since Einstien and the discovery that the universe is queerer then we previously imagined, I can see the Creator using different means to work some strange phenomenon.

The creation itself is not only queerer then we imagined. It might be queerer then we even can imagine. The Creator of space and time may have tools at His disposal to make the sun appear to stop in the sky or even move backwards for a moment.

Originally posted by jaywill
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If the sun seems to be stopped in the sky (at that time people believed that the sun orbited the earth, now science says that it is in fact the rotation of the Earth that make it seems like that), then it would take enormous amount of energy to stop the rotation of the entiere planet, causing wild tectonic ef s disposal to make the sun appear to stop in the sky or even move backwards for a moment.

You mean, you actually believe in this?

Firstly, if that really occurred as written, then we wouldn't be here because of the impacts of the planet during the event. Noone would survive.

Secondly... there is no secondly, the first point is enough.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
You mean, you actually believe in this?

Firstly, if that really occurred as written, then we wouldn't be here because of the impacts of the planet during the event. Noone would survive.

Secondly... there is no secondly, the first point is enough.

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You mean, you actually believe in this?

Firstly, if that really occurred as written, then we wouldn't be here because of the impacts of the planet during the event. Noone would survive.

Secondly... there is no secondly, the first point is enough.
====================================

If you read carefully what I wrote, you should see that I proposed a possible way in which it could APPEAR to be either a stopping of the sun or reversal of the sun dial's shadow.

I did not pursue that the earth actually stopped, though nothing is too hard of God.

But I said that the universe is so queer with its light bending black holes and what not, maybe God could have used something like this.

I just visited an astounding website on how black holes bend and distort time, space, and light.

The creation may be queerer then we can imagine. And the appearance of the sun and moon standing still or the shadow reversing on the sundial, as recorded in the Bible, may have been carried out by the Creator with one of these queer properties of our universe.

Can't you grasp that Whoever stretched out the universe is of unlimited power and ability ?

I mean one extreme is to think around every corner is a miracle. But the other extreme is think that the Almighty cannot do something astounding with His creation if it serve His purpose to do so.

There should be a middle road somewhere in there.

Science demands proof, miracles demand faith.
I believe miracles happen, I am not sure if science happens, but I have seen evidence to suggest that.

Originally posted by jaywill
================================
You mean, you actually believe in this?

Firstly, if that really occurred as written, then we wouldn't be here because of the impacts of the planet during the event. Noone would survive.

Secondly... there is no secondly, the first point is enough.
====================================

If you read care ...[text shortened]... ation if it serve His purpose to do so.

There should be a middle road somewhere in there.[/b]

Yes, I read what you wrote.

But think a little: Introducing a black hole in the center of the solar system?
Don't you think it would create myths in every civilization from that time? No other obseration from elsewhere the biblical sites is recorded.
Don't you think it would twist every orbit of every planet in the solar system? Do we see anything about that in the orbits today?
Remember: A black hole big enough to make the sun go backwards would disrupt many things, and no evidence of a black hole at all. Don't you think this is remarkable?

"Now, suppose that God used a small black hole to enter the solar system and temporarily distort or bend the sunlight to appear to do strange things on the earth ?", you wrote.
You have imagination, I give you that, but it has nothing to do with reality.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Yes, I read what you wrote.

But think a little: Introducing a black hole in the center of the solar system?
Don't you think it would create myths in every civilization from that time? No other obseration from elsewhere the biblical sites is recorded.
Don't you think it would twist every orbit of every planet in the solar system? Do we see anything , you wrote.
You have imagination, I give you that, but it has nothing to do with reality.

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But think a little: Introducing a black hole in the center of the solar system?
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I didn't say the center of the solar system. And it is only a proposal.

I do not know HOW these things occured. I have no idea.

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Don't you think it would create myths in every civilization from that time? No other obseration from elsewhere the biblical sites is recorded.
==================================

Joshua's long day and Hezekiah's sundial, as far as I know, has no corresponding recording in ancient history.

However, the dark day of Christ's crucifixion was apparently noticed and debated.

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Don't you think it would twist every orbit of every planet in the solar system? Do we see anything about that in the orbits today?
=================================

We see some unusual things though. For example a moon of one of the outer planets revolving around in the opposite direction.

Look, I am not saying I know how Joshua's long day occured. I only pointed out that modern science has encreased the amount of things we realize that we do not know with those things we figured out.

Do you disagree with that ? Do you comprehend the curvature of SPACE around mass ? It is a rather peculiar idea.

Maybe the Creator has some ways to do this sun stopping that engage the perculiarities of His creation.

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Remember: A black hole big enough to make the sun go backwards would disrupt many things, and no evidence of a black hole at all. Don't you think this is remarkable?

Hold on. I said the black holes distorted light. It could be that the presence of a distortion of light made it appear that the sun stopped or went backwards.

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"Now, suppose that God used a small black hole to enter the solar system and temporarily distort or bend the sunlight to appear to do strange things on the earth ?", you wrote.
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That's what I wrote. I did not say a black hole in the center. I said maybe one entered.

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You have imagination, I give you that, but it has nothing to do with reality.
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Something wrong with having an imagination ? Scientists even use imagination to propose solutions to problems.

You use your imagination and explain to us how SPACE can be curved around mass, wise guy.

At any rate, I believe nothing should be too hard for the God who created the heavens and the earth in the beginning.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
If the sun seems to be stopped in the sky (at that time people believed that the sun orbited the earth, now science says that it is in fact the rotation of the Earth that make it seems like that), then it would take enormous amount of energy to stop the rotation of the entiere planet, causing wild tectonic effects, making the oceans flow all over land, an says, it would wipe out the life from earth entirely. Only a miracle would have saved us all.

===========================================
If sun stopped like the scripture says, it would wipe out the life from earth entirely. Only a miracle would have saved us all.
======================================

So be it, IF it occured in that physical manner, which neither of us know for sure.

Space, Time, and Matter were God's creation:

"In the beginning [TIME] God created the heavens [SPACE] and the earth [MATTER]. (Gen. 1:1)

God called things not being as being and brought Time, Space, and Matter into existence from nothing.

If you believe this then it is not too hard to grasp that He can do as He chooses with this creation.

If you don't believe God created in the beginning, then you can explain where you imagine it all came from.