Science and Miracles

Originally posted by FabianFnas
If the sun seems to be stopped in the sky (at that time people believed that the sun orbited the earth, now science says that it is in fact the rotation of the Earth that make it seems like that), then it would take enormous amount of energy to stop the rotation of the entiere planet, causing wild tectonic effects, making the oceans flow all over land, an ...[text shortened]... says, it would wipe out the life from earth entirely. Only a miracle would have saved us all.

On balance, if this did happen, I think rather than miracle a more likely explanation would be that it was evidence that we were living in a simulated universe. Possibly one running on a Microsoft OS.

Originally posted by jaywill
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But think a little: Introducing a black hole in the center of the solar system?
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I didn't say the center of the solar system. And it is only a proposal.

I do not know HOW these things occured. I have no idea.

============================= hould be too hard for the God who created the heavens and the earth in the beginning.

No, actually you didn't say much about how the black hole entered, where it was, how it disappeard, or even if it was momentarily there and later dematerialized. You didn't say much. You just proposed the wild idea that a black hole suddenly was somehwere where it bended the light from the sun so the sun appeared to stop or even go backwards. This takes a lot of imagination without knowing the effects of black hole.

Do you really propose that the backward moon of Neptune, Triton, has been disturbed by a black hole, and nothing else extraordinary happended in the solar system? Really? There are better explanation for that moons retrograde movement.

If the dark day of Christ's crucifixion was observed, then we should logically have the exact day of the event. We have not. So it not more than speculation. The debate wasn't of scientific ground anyway. (Please, give me a ref if I am wrong in this.)

"Do you comprehend the curvature of SPACE around mass?" Yes, but another effect of a mass big enough to bend light also excerts a lot of gravitation. The gravitation from a black hole really disturbes the fragile orbits of planetary objects. Yes, I know about the curvature. Do you?

We do agree that the rotation of our planet is responsible of the appearance of the sun going in orbit around us, don't we? At those biblical times they didn't know that. Therefore it is very easy to imagine that the sun could go at any direction at will, they didn't know the physics behind, and the effect of it. We do now. Therefore we can safely believe that the biblical story is nothing else as a good story to be told at the campfires.

I ask you again: Do you still believe the story of the backward going sun? Or do you need further explanation what would happen if it was a true story?

Originally posted by jaywill
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If sun stopped like the scripture says, it would wipe out the life from earth entirely. Only a miracle would have saved us all.
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So be it, IF it occured in that physical manner, which neither of us know for sure.

Space, Time, and Matter were God's cre ...[text shortened]... elieve God created in the beginning, then you can explain where you imagine it all came from.[/b]

This thread is not about the creation, it would be an off-topic attempt to draw attention from your retrograde solar movement. That is what we are debating, not the creation itself.

However, if you really want to discuss the creation, then, please, open a new thread, and I will gladly partecipate in this discussion.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
No, actually you didn't say much about how the black hole entered, where it was, how it disappeard, or even if it was momentarily there and later dematerialized. You didn't say much. You just proposed the wild idea that a black hole suddenly was somehwere where it bended the light from the sun so the sun appeared to stop or even go backwards. This takes a going sun? Or do you need further explanation what would happen if it was a true story?

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No, actually you didn't say much about how the black hole entered, where it was, how it disappeard, or even if it was momentarily there and later dematerialized. You didn't say much. You just proposed the wild idea that a black hole suddenly was somehwere where it bended the light from the sun so the sun appeared to stop or even go backwards. This takes a lot of imagination without knowing the effects of black hole.
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So I didn't write a long article. I certainly didn't say a black hole came to the center of the solar system. So why blame your misreading and blatant error on my not writing enough?

You blew it in reading comprehension there, plain and simple.

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Do you really propose that the backward moon of Neptune, Triton, has been disturbed by a black hole, and nothing else extraordinary happended in the solar system? Really? There are better explanation for that moons retrograde movement.
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If I recall, I only mentioned the reverse rotation of some solar system bodies just to highlight the surprise and unexpected. I did not mean to give anyone the impression such a feature was due to a black hole.

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If the dark day of Christ's crucifixion was observed, then we should logically have the exact day of the event. We have not. So it not more than speculation. The debate wasn't of scientific ground anyway. (Please, give me a ref if I am wrong in this.)
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Start here on your research of that:

http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/historical-secular-quotes-about-jesus/thallus.html

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"Do you comprehend the curvature of SPACE around mass?" Yes, but another effect of a mass big enough to bend light also excerts a lot of gravitation. The gravitation from a black hole really disturbes the fragile orbits of planetary objects. Yes, I know about the curvature. Do you?
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You didn't answer my question about the curvature of SPACE. You answer your questions about the effect of gravity on light and the fragil orbits of planetary objects.

You did not touch the curvature of SPACE. And obviously from what I wrote, I conceded that it was mind boggling to me.

I mean "How can SPACE be curved?"

And a math heavy that I did discuss this with said it can only be seen mathematically. That was one fellow's opinion who knows enough calculus to appreciate the math of special relativity.

He said only in the mathematics of it can you conceptualize SPACE curvature around mass as proposed by Einstien. Let me not lose track of my main point here.

I believe the bible's account. I don't know how God did this. I think the curiousness of the universe more and more unveiled makes this less astounding today then 500 years ago. That was really my point.

I gave a brief example of the strange things that happen about space and light close to a black hole. Who would have thought of those things 500 to 1000 years ago.

I think God somehow arranged for it to happen - Joshua's long day.

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We do agree that the rotation of our planet is responsible of the appearance of the sun going in orbit around us, don't we?
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Yes sir.

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At those biblical times they didn't know that.
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Absolutely correct. AND, how many things do we know today, which in the future kids will smile at how naive we were ? So we should not be so proud.

All that we think we know today may be looked upon as naive child's play should science continue for another 300 years. So why should we be so arrogant looking back at the people in biblical times.

And they probably knew better of some things which have been erased from our common knowledge. This basic arrogance of modern man troubles me.

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Therefore it is very easy to imagine that the sun could go at any direction at will, they didn't know the physics behind, and the effect of it. We do now. Therefore we can safely believe that the biblical story is nothing else as a good story to be told at the campfires.
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Do you really think they were not a bit more sophisticated ? Since man was upon the earth NO ONE had ever noticed the sun doing strange things like that.

Of course if they traveled as far as Scandanavia or to the polar circle they may have noticed that the sun did some funny things, like stay out all day.

Anyway, we know more of science. They knew less. Tomorrow they will probably know much more then we do today. Regardless, God is great enough to do as He pleases with that which He called into being from nothing.

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I ask you again: Do you still believe the story of the backward going sun? Or do you need further explanation what would happen if it was a true story?
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I believe the account of the book of Joshua. And I believe the account of Hezekiah's sun dial shadow moving backwards.

Gradually, I came to a realization that the whole Bible stands together or falls together. This was a gradual process of exceptance.

I am sorry but you have told me nothing which gives me any reason to doubt that God could perform such an event, should it meet His purpose to do so.

You spoke of the rotating earth giving the appearance of a moving sun. That is correct.

My question to YOU is - How many other things we observe in the universe will not one day be discovered only to be APPARENT.

Think about it a little.

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Therefore it is very easy to imagine that the sun could go at any direction at will, they didn't know the physics behind, and the effect of it. We do now. Therefore we can safely believe that the biblical story is nothing else as a good story to be told at the campfires.
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No. To some of us it is much more then a campfire story of curiosity.

Listen, Joshua's long day demonstrates God's willingness to alter the very laws of the universe for the defeat of His enemies and the success of His elect.

That should be the point. God went to SUCH an extent, to bring "the army of Jehovah" into the good land.

This is a divine education. This is God showing man that His eternal purpose with man transcends even the importance of the physical laws of the universe. In short He cares so much for man in cooperation with His plans.

You miss this connection in favor of just a curiousity. God brought His people into Canaan. And in thier cooperation which He FINALLY secured after countless set backs, He demonstrated to what degree He would go along for their success.


In PRINCIPLE .... in PRINICPLE ... the death and resurrection of the Son of God is the same matter demonstrated.

Originally posted by jaywill
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No, actually you didn't say much about how the black hole entered, where it was, how it disappeard, or even if it was momentarily there and later dematerialized. You didn't say much. You just proposed the wild idea that a black hole suddenly was somehwere where it bended the light from the sun so the sun appeared to s ...[text shortened]... not one day be discovered only to be APPARENT.

Think about it a little.

"I certainly didn't say a black hole came to the center of the solar system."
You certanily did. In order to bend the light from the sun, then you obviously have to have the bender, the black hole, somewhere in between the sun and the observer on Earth. Where in the whole universe would that be if not in the central part of the solar system? Sometimes when I read your words, you don't seem to know how the solar system is built. ..

"http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/historical-secular-quotes-about-jesus/thallus.html"
Yes yes, but not a word from the best astronomers of that time, the chinese astronomers. They didn't see a thing. Wonder why?
No, it's just a story, invented from the beginnign of some odd reason.
(Thank you for the ref, btw, I read more from that site later.)

"I mean "How can SPACE be curved?""
If you read and understand Einsteins explanation, then you have your answer there. This is basic physics, so if not the physics books can help you, then how can I explain it for you in a few words? But look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime and see if it makes clearer.

"I believe the account of the book of Joshua. And I believe the account of Hezekiah's sun dial shadow moving backwards."
If you easily can believe what they explained thousands of years ago and still think that that explanation is good and sound, despite that thousands of years of scientific progress can deliver better explanations nowadays, then your time is not now. You live in the past.
You live in an era where many things are well understood, and well explainable, even to children in elementary schools.

You give me a lot of questions. I miss some - please remind me of these questions.
You also give me questions that needs a lot of explaing, more or less impossible to explain in such a media as this. Forgive me that I don't even try. Sorry for that. The explanation is googable, and that I advice you to do.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
"I certainly didn't say a black hole came to the center of the solar system."
You certanily did. In order to bend the light from the sun, then you obviously have to have the bender, the black hole, somewhere in between the sun and the observer on Earth. Where in the whole universe would that be if not in the central part of the solar system? Sometimes wh n try. Sorry for that. The explanation is googable, and that I advice you to do.

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I certainly didn't say a black hole came to the center of the solar system."
You certanily did.
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No I didn't. Why would I ? I know that the sun occupies that place of center. And I had no intention of speaking about its destruction.

I wrote something like, what IF a black hole entered the solar system. Now you can quote me if you disagree.

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In order to bend the light from the sun, then you obviously have to have the bender, the black hole, somewhere in between the sun and the observer on Earth.
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You are trying to make what you think I implied what I said or wrote. Be honest here please.

Cut and paste me where I wrote that a black hole came to the CENTER of the solar system.

My working assumption was and still is that perhaps within the roughly 93,000,000 average miles between earth and the sun, maybe a small black hole could have entered into the solar system bending sunlight.

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Where in the whole universe would that be if not in the central part of the solar system? Sometimes when I read your words, you don't seem to know how the solar system is built. ..
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The question is what I said. And you have lost that case.
I did not SAY a black hole came to the center.

Do you think I was born yesterday ? I can see when someone is trying to put words in my mouth. By saying "You certainly did" and reasoning as you are you trying to put words in my mouth.

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"http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/historical-secular-quotes-about-jesus/thallus.html"

Yes yes, but not a word from the best astronomers of that time, the chinese astronomers.
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Raising the bar ? Now it has to be a word from the BEST astronomers of the time.

Maybe the "BEST" astronomers were off studying something else. Maybe we just don't have a record of what if anything were their comments.

I don't think your complaint lowers the significance of what we do have.


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They didn't see a thing. Wonder why?
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You don't KNOW that they didn't see a thing.

You simply want to discount the significance of what we do have as a record.
Lame.

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No, it's just a story, invented from the beginnign of some odd reason.
(Thank you for the ref, btw, I read more from that site later.)
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You don't know that either.

That's your desperate conspiracy theory.

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"I mean "How can SPACE be curved?""
If you read and understand Einsteins explanation, then you have your answer there.
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Thanks. Of course understanding Einstein's technical explanation is not something everyone is trained to do.

Some teachers are good at making deep physics clearer to the laymen. For example, the Teaching Company has some excellent college level lectures on Relativity. And I have listened to those lectures more than twice.

Still, though many things became clearer to me, the curvature of SPACE around mass is still a big mystery to me. I have seen many many grids, examples and diagrams.

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This is basic physics, so if not the physics books can help you, then how can I explain it for you in a few words? But look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime and see if it makes clearer.
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I don't think you can help me because I am not sure you understand yourself the curvature of SPACE.

The brush off and wink does not persuade me that you really understand what I am asking about.

I still regard space as nothing. Now I hear things occasionally that space is not nothing.

Mind you I do not despise the concept of space curvature around mass. I just find it hard to imagine. And I find it hard to get it explained to me.

I do not intend to give up, the way some people "give up" on the Bible.


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"I believe the account of the book of Joshua. And I believe the account of Hezekiah's sun dial shadow moving backwards."
If you easily can believe what they explained thousands of years ago and still think that that explanation is good and sound, despite that thousands of years of scientific progress can deliver better explanations nowadays, then your time is not now. You live in the past.
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Maybe I don't "easily" believe it. But I believe it.

My decision to trust the Bible came gradually along with my decision that the integrity of Jesus Christ was beyond reproach. I noticed that Jesus took the Old Testament seriously. So I eventually decided that if it was good enough for Jesus, it must be Okay.

That is how I got over my typical modern day arrogance and skepticism to believing the Bible.

As for "living in the past" that is a ridiculous charge to me. And I think an explanation of God the Creator performing something miraculous for His eternal purpose is a good explanation.

I do not divorce the miracle from the context. You seem to care absolutely nothing for the context and just lift from the pages a perculiar curiosity which you assume is unrelated to anything other then itself.

I consider not just what was done, but WHO did it. I didn't just pick up a funny strange little event as a isolated perculiarity. I considered the context of God's character and God's purpose as laid out in the whole Scripture.

I think science should continue to study as long as they can. I like science. My major was in Computer Science and I consider myself at least one who appreciates logic otherwise I could not have worked 30 years in the field.

I probably don't know as much physics as others here. I still give place to God the Creator being able to make an exception with His laws of physics and doing a miracle for His purposes. Or perhaps He arranged something to happen which we could explain some day.

I do not think Science has at all made belief in God obsolete.

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You live in an era where many things are well understood, and well explainable, even to children in elementary schools.
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If you are putting forth a concept that because many things are well understood, so we no longer need to believe that an eternal God who created the universe could not do something miraculous for His purposes, I part with you there.

The encreased understanding of Science is every year adding to the realization of Intelligent Design behind the universe to some of us.

Technology is reading OUT of nature the intelligent laws that some Mind put INTO nature.

So elementary school kids understand more things today then learned scientists did 1000 years ago. You don't think I know that ???

How FAR are you going to take that ? Are you going to say that for that reason we can discard the possibility of the Creator of the cosmos doing the miraculous should it serve Divine purpose to do so ?

I am not going to take it that far. I am not going to make that leap of faith - that because we understand more today, THEREFORE the ultimate power and authority of God the Creator we can relagate to superstitious ideas of the past.

That is a leap that you are making. I am not taking our advance in knowledge that far. And given another 1500 years of progress in science, neither then would I relegate God to the obsolete.

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You give me a lot of questions. I miss some - please remind me of these questions.
You also give me questions that needs a lot of explaing, more or less impossible to explain in such a media as this. Forgive me that I don't even try. Sorry for that. The explanation is googable, and that I advice you to do.
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Its understood.