1. Joined
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    17 Jan '09 18:111 edit
    The problem with his forum, for me, is that a lot of posters can seem to be so entrenched in thier own mindset that there is often restricted space for constructive discussion. The motivations behind some posts can be interpreted as being pride driven or even hatefull at times. Is there no room for any synergy? Does this debate have to revert to insults and derision so often?

    Atheistic scientists keep claiming that without religion we would be relieved of the large proportion of wars; a completely unprovable statement whichever way you look at it. The statement is off the truth - look at a list of all recorded conflicts and most are motivated by political, greed or otherwise (we would ban politics perhaps!) And some are in the name of religion too, yes. Many human beings of all race and geography are self serving, ruthless and hatefull - what's the new news?

    Theists often claim that science advances has enabled the mass destruction of millions of people. Einstein and Oppenheimer's tandem developments leading to the atomic bomb being the obvious example. But without science we would be without the drugs, technology and communication infrastructures that improve the well being of us all, as well as the forwarding of social freedoms. Scientists are owed a huge debt for the advances of human kind, many work in thier chosen field out of a deep belief that what they are doing will result in the betterment of mankind, the relief of suffering and the improvement of our standard of life generally.

    So do many religious people. The balance is that a large part of the religious congregation consists of those people who are motivated by a belief in a higher idealogolgy in terms of serving humanity and protecting weak and underprivilaged, often under the banner of a named deity. Many would argue that to outrightly claim there is no god without proof is actually unscientific. But to think there MAY not be a god is at least realistic and rational untill further evidence is forthcoming to the enquirer.

    I can see that a considered and balanced view is that it is our less than perfect human nature that is at the heart of all things good and bad. Our deeper motivations determine our actions.

    Einstein himself made some great quotes about the human condition;

    "All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree"

    "Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods"

    And....

    "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"
  2. Joined
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    17 Jan '09 19:131 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    The problem with his forum, for me, is that a lot of posters can seem to be so entrenched in thier own mindset that there is often restricted space for constructive discussion. The motivations behind some posts can be interpreted as being pride driven or even hatefull at times. Is there no room for any synergy? Does this debate have to revert to insu ods"

    And....

    "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"
    …The motivations behind some posts can be interpreted as being pride driven or even hateful at times.. . .…

    -but not most; sometimes it is motivated by a desire to put the record straight when science or something is misrepresented and sometimes it is motivated by atheists (like myself) trying to cure theists of their delusions (with no pride nor hate involved). If I hated all theists then I guess I would be so cruel as not to even attempt to cure them of any delusions they may have and thus stay silent whenever they express those delusions no matter how extreme those delusions are.

    ….And....

    "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"
    ..…


    I like the “religion without science is blind” part; it [inadvertently?] goes against the anti-science stance of many creationists. Einstein certainly was not a creationist.
    But it is not really theism that bothers me but anti-science and, worse, anti-reason!
    I always want to cure anyone of any anti-science/anti-reason delusions and this is personally the main motive behind most of my posts.
  3. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
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    17 Jan '09 19:17
    Originally posted by divegeester
    The problem with his forum, for me, is that a lot of posters can seem to be so entrenched in thier own mindset that there is often restricted space for constructive discussion. The motivations behind some posts can be interpreted as being pride driven or even hatefull at times. Is there no room for any synergy? Does this debate have to revert to insu ...[text shortened]... ods"

    And....

    "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"
    I would be very careful in using Einstein's quotes about religion if I were you. He is not talking about your version of Christianity, or your conception of god.
  4. Joined
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    17 Jan '09 20:31
    Was Einstein a theist at the first place? He wasn't a christian, for sure.

    We have to think of the times he lived in. We are more enlightened today, compared with 100 years ago..
  5. Joined
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    17 Jan '09 20:35
    Originally posted by rwingett
    I would be very careful in using Einstein's quotes about religion if I were you. He is not talking about your version of Christianity, or your conception of god.
    I didn't notice any parenthesis in the text of Einstein's quotation, neither did I mention any specific religion in my post, so I shall assume that you are making an uninformed presumption about my version of christianity, and making another about Einstein.
  6. Joined
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    17 Jan '09 20:37
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Was Einstein a theist at the first place? He wasn't a christian, for sure.

    We have to think of the times he lived in. We are more enlightened today, compared with 100 years ago..
    No, he was was not a creationist nor a christian. In fact he protested against the popularist view of god.
  7. Joined
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    17 Jan '09 21:00
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I didn't notice any parenthesis in the text of Einstein's quotation, neither did I mention any specific religion in my post, so I shall assume that you are making an uninformed presumption about my version of christianity, and making another about Einstein.
    I didn't respond to your posting at all, it was just a general remark.

    You responded to mine with a rather informative posting.
  8. Joined
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    18 Jan '09 12:55
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I didn't respond to your posting at all, it was just a general remark.

    You responded to mine with a rather informative posting.
    Ok thanks. Did you intentionally quote my reply to rwingett or were you refering to my reply to yours?
  9. Joined
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    18 Jan '09 23:03
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    [b]…The motivations behind some posts can be interpreted as being pride driven or even hateful at times.. . .…

    -but not most; sometimes it is motivated by a desire to put the record straight when science or something is misrepresented and sometimes it is motivated by atheists (like myself) trying to cure theists of their delusions (with no pr ...[text shortened]... -science/anti-reason delusions and this is personally the main motive behind most of my posts.[/b]
    I find your posts well written, logical and benefiting from an absence of the popular atheistic malice and sneering I often see deracting from any reason in others.

    The reason for my post was that often I see different members arguing over the unproveable and unsubstantiated like two rabid dogs fighting in a flower bed. I.e. regardless of which one wins (if any), there isn't much worth looking at when it's over.
  10. Felicific Forest
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    26 Jan '09 21:351 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    The problem with his forum, for me, is that a lot of posters can seem to be so entrenched in thier own mindset that there is often restricted space for constructive discussion. The motivations behind some posts can be interpreted as being pride driven or even hatefull at times. Is there no room for any synergy? Does this debate have to revert to insu ods"

    And....

    "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"
    For those interested in the matter and want to dive deeper into it:

    ENCYCLICAL LETTER
    FIDES ET RATIO
    OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
    JOHN PAUL II
    TO THE BISHOPS
    OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
    ON THE RELATIONSHIP
    BETWEEN FAITH AND REASON

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fides_et_Ratio
  11. Felicific Forest
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    26 Jan '09 21:534 edits
    In the discussion about this subject ( ... the relationship between Faith and Reason) the Christian faith is almost always looked upon and narrowed down to the group of Christians calling themselves Evangelicals and/or creationists .... by doing this, equating the Evangelical/creationist stances with the Christian stances, one loses the so needed insight in this discussion that the Roman Catholic Church, representing a much larger amount of Christians (... 1,000,000,000 people), accepts and discusses this scientific theory of evolution on a regular basis. The RC Church does not reject the evolution theory at all.

    The RC Church is a fervent promoter of science:

    For instance:

    The Pope adressing the PONTIFICAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES, Friday, 31 October 2008:

    "In choosing the topic Scientific Insight into the Evolution of the Universe and of Life, you seek to focus on an area of enquiry which elicits much interest. In fact, many of our contemporaries today wish to reflect upon the ultimate origin of beings, their cause and their end, and the meaning of human history and the universe."

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2008/october/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20081031_academy-sciences_en.html

    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/documents/rc_pa_acdscien_doc_20000912_far-future_en.html
  12. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
    BWA Soldier
    Tha Brotha Hood
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    26 Jan '09 21:596 edits
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    the Roman Catholic Church, representing a much larger amount of Christians (... 1,000,000,000 people)
    http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/23/20090123vatican-holocaust0123-ON.html

    http://www.catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp

    http://richarddawkins.net/article,1770,Catholic-condom-ban-helping-AIDS-spread-in-Latam-UN,Reuters

    http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0001.html

    http://www.remnantofgod.org/evilewtn.htm

    Do you really think a billion people in the world believe that burning a person alive can, under certain circumstances, be a good thing?
  13. Felicific Forest
    Joined
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    26 Jan '09 22:06
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Was Einstein a theist at the first place? He wasn't a christian, for sure.

    We have to think of the times he lived in. We are more enlightened today, compared with 100 years ago..
    We are more enlightened today, compared with 100 years ago..

    Looking around me and using my eyes I do not get that impression at all .....
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