Shroud of Turin and the Black Hole Principle

I think the Shroud while very interesting.....Like I've said before if your faith is based on relics then your missing the boat so to speak. If you read the old testament you know the relics became obstacles to those people of that day



Manny

PS I'm more interested in Noah's Ark but even if they found it people will not believe.

Originally posted by menace71
PS I'm more interested in Noah's Ark but even if they found it people will not believe.

What's to believe? If they found it, it would be there. No belief required. Its not as if it would be some ghostly form that only true believers can see.

True but there would be skeptics is all.....this is human nature




Manny

Originally posted by menace71
I think the Shroud while very interesting.....Like I've said before if your faith is based on relics then your missing the boat so to speak. If you read the old testament you know the relics became obstacles to those people of that day



Manny

PS I'm more interested in Noah's Ark but even if they found it people will not believe.

A Noah's ark relic is okay for a Jew. However, I think the proof of the resurrection of Christ should be more important to a Christian.

Originally posted by RJHinds
A Noah's ark relic is okay for a Jew. However, I think the proof of the resurrection of Christ should be more important to a Christian.

Isn't there something about idolatry in the Big Book of Fairy Tales? If ever there was an idol or graven image it's the bit of old rag that you revere so much.

Originally posted by menace71
True but there would be skeptics is all.....this is human nature
Manny

Of course there would be sceptics, and its one of the best parts of human nature. But being a sceptic is not the same thing as being closed minded or deliberately delusional.
For example, a sceptic would ask "Is there good evidence that the object claimed to be the Ark actually exists?", "What other reasonable explanations are there for the object being there?", "Does it match descriptions in the Bible and what are the consequences of any discrepancies?" "Does its existence substantiate anything said in the Bible and if so, to what extent?" etc. This sort of sceptical questioning is good.
But your initial comment 'people will not believe' suggests that it is all a matter of faith and that those who are sceptical are being so for religious or personal reasons - and you said it in a disparaging way as if you think sceptics are bad.

Originally posted by Kepler
Isn't there something about idolatry in the Big Book of Fairy Tales? If ever there was an idol or graven image it's the bit of old rag that you revere so much.

The image on the cloth is not graven or made by the hand of man, so it would not fall under the category of an idol that is worshipped, like the golden calf of Moses day. The golden calf had nothing to do with representing the true God, but was made to take worship away from the true God. Worship of Christ is allowed because He is the Son of God and the manifestation of the true God in bodily form. The old rag is simply a relic used to bring something to mind to the believers, just like the bread and wine in the Lord's supper, that Christ told his disciples to take in rememberance of Him.

Originally posted by RJHinds
A Noah's ark relic is okay for a Jew. However, I think the proof of the resurrection of Christ should be more important to a Christian.

Don't need a shroud to believe in the resurrection my friend




Manny

Originally posted by twhitehead
Of course there would be sceptics, and its one of the best parts of human nature. But being a sceptic is not the same thing as being closed minded or deliberately delusional.
For example, a sceptic would ask "Is there good evidence that the object claimed to be the Ark actually exists?", "What other reasonable explanations are there for the object being ...[text shortened]... sonal reasons - and you said it in a disparaging way as if you think sceptics are bad.

I gotcha.....I see your point



Manny

Originally posted by menace71
Don't need a shroud to believe in the resurrection my friend




Manny

Of course not, but why should we refuse it, if God gives it to us?

Originally posted by twhitehead
and you said it in a disparaging way as if you think sceptics are bad.

Hahaha, this is really the pot calling the kettle black.

You always speak of God in a 'disparaging way' 'AS IF' you think God is bad.

Except there's really no 'as if' with you.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The image on the cloth is not graven or made by the hand of man, so it would not fall under the category of an idol that is worshipped, like the golden calf of Moses day. The golden calf had nothing to do with representing the true God, but was made to take worship away from the true God. Worship of Christ is allowed because He is the Son of God and the m ...[text shortened]... d and wine in the Lord's supper, that Christ told his disciples to take in rememberance of Him.

Catholics have a far different idea regarding the Eucharist, so perhaps it's not the best analogy.

Originally posted by menace71
I think the Shroud while very interesting.....Like I've said before if your faith is based on relics then your missing the boat so to speak. If you read the old testament you know the relics became obstacles to those people of that day



Manny

PS I'm more interested in Noah's Ark but even if they found it people will not believe.

I like Calvin's statement that a ship could be made from all the pieces of the 'True Cross'. Kinda puts the whole 'relic' thing into perspective.

Originally posted by menace71
I gotcha.....I see your point



Manny

Thank you, its so rare on this forum that we actually get anothers point that its nice to know when we succeed. I fully admit that I seem to usually fail to get other peoples points.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Of course not, but why should we refuse it, if God gives it to us?

You say "of course not" (it isn't proof) Then why do you keep referring to it as "proof" as you did above?