1. Standard memberPhlabibit
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    28 Jun '05 23:08
    Only God can know a 'man's heart'.

    Only God could know right from wrong.

    Why do so many Christians here have 'no faith' in mankind and paint humans as such vial creatures?

    RX
  2. Felicific Forest
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    28 Jun '05 23:38
    Originally posted by Phlabibit
    Only God can know a 'man's heart'.

    Only God could know right from wrong.

    Why do so many Christians here have 'no faith' in mankind and paint humans as such vial creatures?

    RX
    Phlab: "Why do so many Christians here have 'no faith' in mankind and paint humans as such vial creatures?"

    ... many Christians here ? Some Phlabby, some .......
  3. Standard memberPhlabibit
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    29 Jun '05 00:58
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Phlab: "Why do so many Christians here have 'no faith' in mankind and paint humans as such vial creatures?"

    ... many Christians here ? Some Phlabby, some .......
    Point well taken, it's probably quantity of posts over quantity of posters.

    RX
  4. Joined
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    29 Jun '05 02:161 edit
    Originally posted by Phlabibit
    Only God can know a 'man's heart'.

    Only God could know right from wrong.

    Why do so many Christians here have 'no faith' in mankind and paint humans as such vial creatures?

    RX
    Why do so many Christians here have 'no faith' in mankind and paint humans as such vial creatures?

    i really don't know. i would say that of the christians i have met, only a small minority actively perpetuate this view. nevertheless, i have never understood it.

    it may be an attempt to rationalize the crazy biblical notion that the non-believer actually deserves to be tortured for all eternity. if they didn't paint humans as vile creatures, then the absurdity of this claim would be even more apparent than it already is, and the believer would not sleep as comfortably at night.
  5. Hmmm . . .
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    29 Jun '05 02:432 edits
    Originally posted by Phlabibit
    Point well taken, it's probably quantity of posts over quantity of posters.

    RX
    Ivanhoe is certainly right, but….

    On here, it really does seem at times to be “quantity of posters.” Ivanhoe posts a lot, and he’s neither a “total depravity” guy, nor a biblical literalist. Neither is lucifershammer. Nor Nemesio, though he keeps his personal faith to himself (for reasons I understand). And there is Kirksey, of course, whose theology is thoroughly grace-based (read Will Campbell's Brother to a Dragonfly).

    Of those who do take a less than positive view of humanity generally, and who seem to take the Bible more according to “the letter,” both KellyJay and huntingbear, for example, are very gracious individuals and not particularly dogmatic (which does not mean that they don’t argue their positions!). Coletti is not technically a fundamentalist, and his (in my opinion) rather severe views seem to come more from his reasoned conclusions (right or wrong) than from any ressentiment or a desire to push a particular agenda.

    Then there are those who do seem intent on pushing an agenda that I would consider to be right-wing, intolerant, extremist “Christian.” Unfortunately they have garnered a lot of political power in this country, and so their pounding of the bully pulpit seems particularly disturbing—even to other Christians. Whether they do this out of fear or insecurity or what, I don’t know.
  6. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    29 Jun '05 03:04
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Ivanhoe is certainly right, but….

    On here, it really does seem at times to be “quantity of posters.” Ivanhoe posts a lot, and he’s neither a “total depravity” guy, nor a biblical literalist. Neither is lucifershammer. Nor Nemesio, though he keeps his personal faith to himself (for reasons I understand). And there is Kirksey, of course, whose theology ...[text shortened]... en to other Christians. Whether they do this out of fear or insecurity or what, I don’t know.
    It's the eventual danger they pose to the other churches and religions , in terms of repressing world views that are, in their view , opposed to God. Listening to their TV preachers is like a descent into the hell that spawns great tyrannies.
    In short they are "christian" in name only and if the other religions don't stand up to them they will have the name Christian all to themselves in the public perception.And Christianity will have died.


  7. Donationrwingett
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    29 Jun '05 04:221 edit
    Originally posted by Phlabibit
    Only God can know a 'man's heart'.

    Only God could know right from wrong.

    Why do so many Christians here have 'no faith' in mankind and paint humans as such vial creatures?

    RX
    Job security.

    If it was admitted that mankind was qualified to solve their own problems then there would be no use for a clergy, or a religion at all. The church has a vested interest in convincing mankind that they are worthless sinners so they can provide the service of guiding them on the path toward "salvation". The church offers a "cure", but no cure is needed unless you have been convinced beforehand that you have a problem.
  8. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    29 Jun '05 08:22
    ... and paint humans as such vial creatures?

    RX[/b]
    The advent of in-vitro fertilisation made it possible to label people as "vial creatures".
  9. Felicific Forest
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    29 Jun '05 14:25
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Job security.

    If it was admitted that mankind was qualified to solve their own problems then there would be no use for a clergy, or a religion at all. The church has a vested interest in convincing mankind that they are worthless sinners so they can provide the service of guiding them on the path toward "salvation". The church offers a "cure", but no cure is needed unless you have been convinced beforehand that you have a problem.
    Rwingo: "The church has a vested interest in convincing mankind that they are worthless sinners"


    I don't know to which church you are referring, but this doctrine certainly cannot be found in the teachings of the Roman-Catholic Church. On the contrary !
  10. Donationrwingett
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    29 Jun '05 15:44
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Rwingo: "The church has a vested interest in convincing mankind that they are worthless sinners"


    I don't know to which church you are referring, but this doctrine certainly cannot be found in the teachings of the Roman-Catholic Church. On the contrary !
    I'm do not pretend to be an expert on Roman Catholicism, but I seem to recall that they also believe in the burden of original sin. Or am I mistaken?
  11. Standard membershavixmir
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    29 Jun '05 15:51
    Originally posted by Phlabibit
    Only God can know a 'man's heart'.

    Only God could know right from wrong.

    Why do so many Christians here have 'no faith' in mankind and paint humans as such vial creatures?

    RX
    I think it has to do with religion being a tool of the rich to keep the masses scared, under control and "to do what they are told."

    If all religious people did have faith in mankind, then there would be less need for wars. There would be less arms sold and people would refuse to pay taxes to buy bombs to kill children in third world nations.

    So the religious zealots propagate this and the religiously inclined swallow it as medicine from the day they are born.

    It's obviously very hypocrite.
    How many good Christian leaders said after 9-11: "It's best to turn the other cheek."?

    So the message is not that of the bible, it is that which the ruling classes want people to swallow. And faith in mankind could lead to horrible things like socialism and what-not.
  12. Standard memberMoldy Crow
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    29 Jun '05 15:59
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    I think it has to do with religion being a tool of the rich to keep the masses scared, under control and "to do what they are told."

    If all religious people did have faith in mankind, then there would be less need for wars. There would be less arms sold and people would refuse to pay taxes to buy bombs to kill children in third world nations.

    So t ...[text shortened]... ple to swallow. And faith in mankind could lead to horrible things like socialism and what-not.
    Napoleon said , "Religion is the only thing that stops the poor from murdering the rich ."
  13. Donationkirksey957
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    29 Jun '05 16:10
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Job security.

    If it was admitted that mankind was qualified to solve their own problems then there would be no use for a clergy, or a religion at all. The church has a vested interest in convincing mankind that they are worthless sinners so they can provide the service of guiding them on the path toward "salvation". The church offers a "cure", but no cure is needed unless you have been convinced beforehand that you have a problem.
    First let me say that I like job security.

    Your post was interesting , Rob, but allow me to reframe some of your thoughts into what I hope will be a healthier view of clergy, religion, and even sin. You say that if it were admittted that mankind was qualified to solve their own problems then there would be no use for a clergy or religion at all. The issue is not that we can solve our problems, though some we can, but rather we have great potential to create our problems. Call it irresponsibility or sin, it doesn't matter. The purpose of the curch , in my opinion, is not about convincing people they are "worthless sinners" but rather convincing people to be in relationships that have meaning and purpose and accountability whether it is with humans or the God of their understanding.

    Surely you of all people should be gratified by clergy throughout the generations that have taken on prophetic stances in calling out political abuses. William Sloane Coffin, Martin Luther King and the Berrigan brothers just to name a few.

    You need to listen to me more and less of the people that get you so riled up. Of course, some are out to stone me as you may know. 🙂
  14. Felicific Forest
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    29 Jun '05 16:261 edit
    Originally posted by rwingett
    I'm do not pretend to be an expert on Roman Catholicism, but I seem to recall that they also believe in the burden of original sin. Or am I mistaken?

    This doesn't prove that the RC teaches that people are "worthless sinners".
  15. Standard memberDavid C
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    29 Jun '05 16:33
    Originally posted by ivanhoe

    This doesn't prove that the RC teaches that people are "worthless sinners".
    It does. You are a sinner in the eyes of their lord until you repent and accept the redemption they are selling.
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