1. SubscriberFMF
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    27 Mar '16 07:315 edits
    I just got a text from a Muslim friend in Jakarta who said she was approached by a Jehovah's Witness in a shopping mall and given a spiel about the JW religion and a copy of Watchtower.

    This is interesting, because it is illegal in this country to try to persuade someone to change their religion - such a prohibition is an extremely dodgy interference in one's freedom of religion and thought (I would say), but it is a basic building block of multi-faith harmony here, such as it is, nevertheless.

    The law in Indonesia does not forbid people from changing their religion, although proselytizing to members of other recognized groups is prohibited by law. I support that JW member's moral right to proselytize, and to do so in that shopping mall if she so chooses, but her action was illegal ~ I hope she was or is aware, and that she is careful.

    Anyway, my Muslim friend asked me if I'd ever heard of the JWs and what I thought. I told her that I have known JWs in the UK, Japan, and Australia ~ in some cases quite well on a personal level ~ and that I have spent some considerable time discussing things with JWs online.

    I also told her that they share many of the same beliefs as other individuals and groups who identify themselves as being Christians, and that they are involved in various kinds of charitable work the world over.

    However, I went on to tell her that, in terms of how the religion, its constituent groups, its leaders, and its individual members, conduct themselves and treat each other when there is found to be a lack of conformity and/or obedience, the psychological methods they use, as well as the ramifications of dissidence and leaving the group/church, I told her - to my way of thinking - the JW organization is comparable to the Church of Scientology, albeit [of course] not in terms of its core beliefs or doctrine.

    Is that more or less a fair description?
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    27 Mar '16 08:58
    Originally posted by FMF
    I just got a text from a Muslim friend in Jakarta who said she was approached by a Jehovah's Witness in a shopping mall and given a spiel about the JW religion and a copy of Watchtower.

    This is interesting, because it is illegal in this country to try to persuade someone to change their religion - such a prohibition is an extremely dodgy interference in one' ...[text shortened]... ourse] not in terms of its core beliefs or doctrine.

    Is that more or less a fair description?
    I didn't know much about Scientology except that it is a cult and very difficult to leave; so I suppose it is like the Jehovah's Witness religion in that respect.
  3. Cape Town
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    27 Mar '16 13:56
    Originally posted by FMF
    Is that more or less a fair description?
    I don't know a lot about either organization, but I would say: no, its not a fair description. Partly, you do not know what the person you are describing it to knows about Scientology, and most likely most of what he thinks he knows is wrong anyway.
    Much better to simply describe the key points about what you know about the JW organization rather than using an imperfect analogy that will almost certainly lead to misunderstanding.
    Are there similarities? Of course, but then all religions have some things in common. If you asked me what Judaism was like I could say 'well its like Christianity' and I wouldn't be entirely wrong. I could even say 'its like Buddhism.'
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    27 Mar '16 14:04
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I didn't know much about Scientology except that it is a cult and very difficult to leave; so I suppose it is like the Jehovah's Witness religion in that respect.
    Most denominations have significant social pressure not to leave. I fully realize that the amount of pressure varies significantly, but it shouldn't be underestimated.
  5. SubscriberFMF
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    27 Mar '16 14:30
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Are there similarities? Of course, but then all religions have some things in common. If you asked me what Judaism was like I could say 'well its like Christianity' and I wouldn't be entirely wrong. I could even say 'its like Buddhism.'
    Well I was referring to orchestrated psychological abuse as testified to by escapees from both organizations and not to possible theological similarities (as with Christianity & Judaism). I thought that was pretty clear in the OP. I stated that they were not really comparable in terms of their core beliefs or doctrine.
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    27 Mar '16 15:321 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I don't know a lot about either organization, but I would say: no, its not a fair description. Partly, you do not know what the person you are describing it to knows about Scientology, and most likely most of what he thinks he knows is wrong anyway.
    Much better to simply describe the key points about what you know about the JW organization rather than us ...[text shortened]... l its like Christianity' and I wouldn't be entirely wrong. I could even say 'its like Buddhism.'
    yes its ill conceived and rather clumsy and betrays a lack of knowledge of both organisations.
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    27 Mar '16 15:32
    Originally posted by FMF
    I just got a text from a Muslim friend in Jakarta who said she was approached by a Jehovah's Witness in a shopping mall and given a spiel about the JW religion and a copy of Watchtower.

    This is interesting, because it is illegal in this country to try to persuade someone to change their religion - such a prohibition is an extremely dodgy interference in one' ...[text shortened]... ourse] not in terms of its core beliefs or doctrine.

    Is that more or less a fair description?
    Very fair and accurate.
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    27 Mar '16 15:34
    Originally posted by Captain Strange
    Very fair and accurate.
    wow the wind blew in a scrawny waif, this forum lets any spiritual riff raff in nowadays.
  9. Cape Town
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    27 Mar '16 15:35
    Originally posted by FMF
    Well I was referring to orchestrated psychological abuse as testified to by escapees from both organizations and not to possible theological similarities (as with Christianity & Judaism). I thought that was pretty clear in the OP. I stated that they were not really comparable in terms of their core beliefs or doctrine.
    And my point is that even in the way they may carry out orchestrated psychological abuse there will be significant differences. I just think it is unfair to tell someone they are similar without going into specifics and if you are ready to go into specifics then you might as well not make the comparison in the first place. I think the differences between the two organizations is significant enough that nobody should confuse the two.
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    27 Mar '16 15:36
    Originally posted by FMF
    Well I was referring to orchestrated psychological abuse as testified to by escapees from both organizations and not to possible theological similarities (as with Christianity & Judaism). I thought that was pretty clear in the OP. I stated that they were not really comparable in terms of their core beliefs or doctrine.
    I like the phrase " orchestrated psychological abuse" and think it is an adequate descriptor all by itself. It's how a lot of groups work. Sometimes I think of these cults almost like living things that "evolve" adopting techniques that work and dropping techniques that don't. With some "design" built in by a crafty founder. I've been to Clearwater Florida, and seen the followers on the streets. It's sorta creepy.
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    27 Mar '16 15:392 edits
    Originally posted by JS357
    I like the phrase " orchestrated psychological abuse" and think it is an adequate descriptor all by itself. It's how a lot of groups work. Sometimes I think of these cults almost like living things that "evolve" adopting techniques that work and dropping techniques that don't. With some "design" built in by a crafty founder. I've been to Clearwater Florida, and seen the followers on the streets. It's sorta creepy.
    Can you tell us what sort of orchestrated psychological abuse our founder in the modern era Charles Russell incorporated into the organisation formerly known as the International Bibles students, now Jehovahs witnesses. Thank you. I take it you have read Hubbards book because I have and I can tell you here and now it bears absolutely no resemblance to the literature of Jehovahs witnesses nor their teachings or practices. You of course being of a similar disposition and informed on the subject can point out from his work the similarities. Once again, thank you in advance.
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    27 Mar '16 16:201 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    And my point is that even in the way they may carry out orchestrated psychological abuse there will be significant differences. I just think it is unfair to tell someone they are similar without going into specifics and if you are ready to go into specifics then you might as well not make the comparison in the first place. I think the differences between the two organizations is significant enough that nobody should confuse the two.
    Not only is it unfair it reeks of the kind of low brow readers digest flimsy journalism so beloved by the OP.
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    27 Mar '16 16:23
    Originally posted by JS357
    I like the phrase " orchestrated psychological abuse" and think it is an adequate descriptor all by itself. It's how a lot of groups work. Sometimes I think of these cults almost like living things that "evolve" adopting techniques that work and dropping techniques that don't.
    I dislike the use of the word 'cult' in this context as it has a wide range of meaning and is mostly used as a derogatory term.

    It must be noted that almost all religions / denominations are guilty of the activity you describe. Religions do evolve both intentionally and unintentionally and selection results in those that are effective at obtaining and maintaining membership surviving.
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    27 Mar '16 16:26
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes its ill conceived and rather clumsy and betrays a lack of knowledge of both organisations.
    Not really, it's just a floated observation and a request for opinion.
  15. Cape Town
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    27 Mar '16 17:06
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Not really, it's just a floated observation and a request for opinion.
    Is it really? It doesn't look that way.
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