Similar to Scientologists?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I have read Hubbards book, Dianetics, I found it in a laundry when I was a student. Its a kind of pseudo-psychological approach which attempts to reprogram the subconscious and free it from 'aberration'. I cannot say why anyone took it seriously.

You entered http://www.jehovah.to/gen/legal/state/paul.htm into the discussion but then vanished the moment some scrutiny of it proved inconvenient to you.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I have read Hubbards book, Dianetics, I found it in a laundry when I was a student. Its a kind of pseudo-psychological approach which attempts to reprogram the subconscious and free it from 'aberration'. I cannot say why anyone took it seriously.

As any theory, it's a valid theory until proved untrue. Do you have the background in psychology in order to make such a determination that this theory is "pseudo-psychological" and should not be taken seriously (i.e. studied and researched)?

Originally posted by Suzianne
As any theory, it's a valid theory until proved untrue. Do you have the background in psychology in order to make such a determination that this theory is "pseudo-psychological" and should not be taken seriously (i.e. studied and researched)?

No, that's backwards.

No theory is valid until it has been proven true.

This is because there is an infinite number of possible theories and only a tiny proportion
are actually valid/true.

EDIT: oh and welcome back.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes its ill conceived and rather clumsy and betrays a lack of knowledge of both organisations.

JW I don't know that much about, but Scientology I do. I was in scientology for a while back in the day, long enough to figure out L Ron Hubbard was a genuine nutcase and Scientology is the poster boy for the word 'Cult'.

For instance, ATT there was a communication system to L Ron they called Rongrams.

One question was put to him, what to do about apostates.

The guy asking the question said they applied pressure to the individual to come back and such.

L Ron's reply: "There is always the 45 solution". That was not a joke.

They have been known to have killed apostates and those they haven't outright killed, they shun totally.

I suppose JW's have the same shunning thing going on but I haven't heard of actual murder of JW's for leaving the faith.

One thing also: L Ron was accused by the IRS of skipping out on taxes owed.

And just co-incidentally he decided to do his managerial operation at sea, where co-incidentally the IRS could not get ahold of his money.

So he had a couple of large ships, 300 footers with a staff of 700 or so and now it was called the "SeaOrg" and he lived on it pretty much till the day he died.

So there was this interview on radio Canada about a guy who was a die hard scientologist but he had a problem, he did a sex change operation and became a woman.

In that regard he was treated with respect by the crew and got really high up in the 'sea org', making deposits of money and such.

One day, going over the books he/she found glaring irregularities in the deposits.

She did not want to disturb L Ron who was on the same ship, thinking there was some kind of plot to discredit L Ron or something.

So she took the case to some of the lower rank people and all of a sudden she found herself in Miami being grilled for 6 hours about what was going on.

They accused her of being a spy and such.

At the end of all this, and I might add, she/he had married women, 2 of them, and had children by at least one before the transition and all of them were scientologists.

So the result of all that was she was ex-communicated, see you later, much later, don't slam the door on the way out. So lost contact with the child and the two women she/he had been married to when he was a man.

So that is the kind of thing that goes on every day in Scientology, and one thing I know: the 'treatments' they do are extremely expensive, a sliding scale you pay a LOT of money to get from level A to level B to the top levels and such. Among other tricks they use, get the sucker to pass over all his live savings, his house, cars, EVERYTHING the dude owns in order for that sucker to advance to the higher levels.

This much is established fact and I know from my own involvement about the vile Rongrams.

Originally posted by sonhouse
JW I don't know that much about, but Scientology I do. I was in scientology for a while back in the day, long enough to figure out L Ron Hubbard was a genuine nutcase and Scientology is the poster boy for the word 'Cult'.

For instance, ATT there was a communication system to L Ron they called Rongrams.

One question was put to him, what to do about ap ...[text shortened]... ls.

This much is established fact and I know from my own involvement about the vile Rongrams.

Actually people are only disfelloshipped if they refuse to repent after repeated attempts to help them change their course of action. Even after they are disfellowshipped they can still come to any meetings and if they have family that are witnesses they will carry on as normal simply having no spiritual fellowship with them. Every attempt is made to prevent people from being disfellowshipped but some simply refuse to comply with the Bibles standards of morality. Many who are disfellowshipped are welcomed back into the congregation after a period of time when they have reflected on and changed the course of their action and demonstrated repentance. This entire process seems to me to be about as diametrically opposed to what you describe happens in Scientology as you can get but then of course the OP's text was never likely to be anything other than based ignorance.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Actually people are only disfelloshipped if they refuse to repent after repeated attempts to help them change their course of action. Even after they are disfellowshipped they can still come to any meetings and if they have family that are witnesses they will carry on as normal simply having no spiritual fellowship with them. Every attempt is made ...[text shortened]... get but then of course the OP's text was never likely to be anything other than based ignorance.

Personally, I never understood why people should dis JW's while thinking it is ok for there to be Christian snake worshipers and such.

I never had a problem with JW's. My problem is with religions in general.

I laid my position out in length as a response to Suzianne about a question she posed in "so long Dasa' thread if you are interested in the long form of my belief system.

I think they are ALL full of shyte, no god needed, humans are quite intelligent enough to make bullshyte gods with the full intent to control the population even if the originator was more altruistic, the next generation of leaders get corrupted inevitably and therefore MUCH more interested in maintaining the political power of whatever religious structure they have maintained than ANY kind of true spiritual growth.

The bottom line: People are gullible. Some dude stands on a box and pronounces himself anointed by a god to tell the world and so forth, gullible individuals will fall for it hook line and sinker. Snake oil salesmen know that and have known that for thousands of years.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
This entire process seems to me to be about as diametrically opposed to what you describe happens in Scientology as you can get but then of course the OP's text was never likely to be anything other than based ignorance.

Have you read the text found at http://www.jehovah.to/gen/legal/state/paul.htm ? What you have there is a summary of the judgement of the court on the behaviour of the JW organization and its members, the harm it did to the victims, and the defence that the JW organization successfully mounted (i.e. freedom of religion, a.k.a. the protection of religious differences mandated by the U.S. first amendment).

If you've read any testimony from ex-JWs and any testimony from ex-Scientologists (on their victims support sites), the similarities in their experiences are striking. Furthermore, the Scientologists could use exactly the same defence of its behaviour as the JWs used in the case at the link above (which you provided, by the way).

On the basis of these two things alone, I think the comment I made to my Muslim friend - as described in the OP - is bang on target.

This is, in part, due to the information that - lest we forget - you yourself posted on this thread about what shunning is actually like, and what the legal defence is for the intangible or emotional harms it causes, so that the organization could evade a tort cause of action against them.

The comparison of the JWs and Scientologists in the OP is clearly valid. If you think you can dismiss this lazily with reference to "ignorance", I suggest you read your own link again and take a look at some of those victim support sites.

Originally posted by sonhouse
My problem is with religions in general. [...] I think they are ALL full of shyte....

OK, thank you sonhouse, but this is not the topic of this thread.

Originally posted by FMF
OK, thank you sonhouse, but this is not the topic of this thread.

Sure, that was just an aside.

I think Scientology is an evil cult pure and simple, a big business sucking the lives of gullible people.

But that is the way of any religion, suck the lives away in their effort to control people and build a political power base.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I think Scientology is an evil cult pure and simple, a big business sucking the lives of gullible people.

But that is the way of any religion, suck the lives away in their effort to control people and build a political power base.

I don't have any motivation or need to try to steer my friend away from religion, per se. She is a Muslim, and perfectly content in her faith. As for the JWs, like I said, I told her that they share many of the same beliefs as other individuals and groups who identify themselves as Christian, and that they are engaged in various kinds of charitable work all around the world. She was approached by a JW when she was out shopping, and she asked me what I thought. She understood what I was getting at when I made the comparison to Scientology, and she knew full well that it was not intended as a comparison of their core beliefs or doctrines.

Originally posted by FMF
I don't have any motivation or need to try to steer my friend away from religion, per se. She is a Muslim, and perfectly content in her faith. As for the JWs, like I said, I told her that they share many of the same beliefs as other individuals and groups who identify themselves as Christian, and that they are engaged in various kinds of charitable work all arou ...[text shortened]... she knew full well that it was not intended as a comparison of their core beliefs or doctrines.

The thing about Scientology is this: We KNOW it is man made. It was directly the result of a party at Hugo Gernsback's place somewhere around 1948 or so where L Ron Hubbard bragged he could start a religion and sho nuff, he did. Evil religion but I suppose you have to call it a religion, really a cult cleverly designed to attract weak gullible people.

Oh wait. That is just like all the others.

Originally posted by sonhouse
The thing about Scientology is this: We KNOW it is man made. It was directly the result of a party at Hugo Gernsback's place somewhere around 1948 or so where L Ron Hubbard bragged he could start a religion and sho nuff, he did. Evil religion but I suppose you have to call it a religion, really a cult cleverly designed to attract weak gullible people.

Oh wait. That is just like all the others.

Like I said, I did not seek to compare their beliefs or doctrines. The reason I mentioned Scientology is summed up in the last paragraph - starting with "However, I went on to tell her that..." ~ in the OP. My friend is not going to become either a Jehovah's Witness or a Scientologist, so the differences in what they are all about are, practically speaking, neither here or there. The kind of stuff I was referring to is like what we see in the link robbie provided.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Actually people are only disfelloshipped if they refuse to repent after repeated attempts to help them change their course of action. Even after they are disfellowshipped they can still come to any meetings and if they have family that are witnesses they will carry on as normal simply having no spiritual fellowship with them. Every attempt is made ...[text shortened]... get but then of course the OP's text was never likely to be anything other than based ignorance.

I think this entire 'disfellowship' or ex-communication or apostasy, whatever you want to call it, is unconscionable no matter WHAT religion it comes from.

This disgusting thing is just another indication of what religion is really all about, CONTROL. With a capital C. Tell me it's different, go ahead, I dare you.

Somebody wants to leave a faith for whatever reason, it should not be a concern to ANYONE. It is similar to the abortion issue. Pro lifers are after control, they are desperate to control women's bodies no matter what issues surround it.

Someone wants to leave a faith, said faith should just accept it gracefully and not go down the path of intimidation. That is a slippery moral slope having nothing to do with a god no matter WHAT people say.

Oh believe me I know their thinking, if it isn't pure hatred, it is 'we must save his or her immortal soul, it's for their own good'. Right. Actually, it's for the good of the church to keep the membership as high as possible. Don't want to be losing political support now do we.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I think this entire 'disfellowship' or ex-communication or apostasy, whatever you want to call it, is unconscionable no matter WHAT religion it comes from.

This disgusting thing is just another indication of what religion is really all about, CONTROL. With a capital C. Tell me it's different, go ahead, I dare you.

Somebody wants to leave a faith for ...[text shortened]... to keep the membership as high as possible. Don't want to be losing political support now do we.

I see so you would simply have the congregation permit everything and anything making a complete mockery of the principles upon which it was founded. Please try this anarchistic approach at the organisation which employs you and let me know how you get on. I suspect they also have rules and regulations because their mandate is to control you.