Some Facts about Taoism

Originally posted by rwingett
"Surmising from their philosophy"? "Not acquainted with Taoist actions in situ"? This apparent disconnect between theory and practice seems troubling. Either Taoist philosophy leads to a greater incidence of beneficial actions, or it does not. If the Chinese are Taoists, and if the Chinese are rapidly destroying their environment despite their Taoist philos ...[text shortened]... In any case, to study any philosophy without regard to its practical effects seems...unwise.

I think you have to separate national identity with religous identity.

So you could have 99% of Chinese being Daoists, but that 1%,which is a hell of a lot of people, could still screw it* up for everyone else. You follow?



*the enviroment,ethics,morals,etc.

Originally posted by rwingett
"Surmising from their philosophy"? "Not acquainted with Taoist actions in situ"? This apparent disconnect between theory and practice seems troubling. Either Taoist philosophy leads to a greater incidence of beneficial actions, or it does not. If the Chinese are Taoists, and if the Chinese are rapidly destroying their environment despite their Taoist philos ...[text shortened]... In any case, to study any philosophy without regard to its practical effects seems...unwise.

Well, I haven't been to China is what I meant. I don't know how practicing Taoists actually act on the environment. What you say is true if we equate Chinese in the main with philosophical Taoism, which I believe not to be the case. My impression is many practice a superstitious form of Taoism and the abrasion between superstition and philossphy is part of Taoist history. I don't know actual numbers of those who are serious practitoners.
The overriding by Western materialist values is sadly becoming obvious.
Any "true" Taoism would or should of course show itself in ecological responsibilty. Philosophy or religion without grounding in real action and applying to life is a play acting and I agree with what you are getting at.
In a slight but appropriate twist, I have just thought about Marx and Taoist philosophy - there could be some alignment there too I expect. I get the impression you appreciate the great man also.

Originally posted by Taoman
Well, I haven't been to China is what I meant. I don't know how practicing Taoists actually act on the environment. What you say is true if we equate Chinese in the main with philosophical Taoism, which I believe not to be the case. My impression is many practice a superstitious form of Taoism and the abrasion between superstition and philossphy is part of Ta some alignment there too I expect. I get the impression you appreciate the great man also.

Coming from a second world country (Hungary), I can definately say that there is a general hunger for materialism with most Hungarians before Russian communism failed.
Now that we can taste it for ourselves, and live and percieve the negatives of capitalism/consumerism, we can make more informed decisions about real values, or what real values should be.

I have some full circle myself in about 28 years,(i had the philosophy worked out way before then but the practice took some time), so I have hope (hate that word in general), for all mankind. If I can come from a relatively backward society (Hungary in the 80's) , and see the short commings of materialism/capitalism , then I think a lot of others can too.

After all, my parents did not teach me, actually they tried (not very hard mind you) to turn me into a christian at a very early age, going to church and whatnot, and it failed terribly. My parents could see it failing and gave up on it (ie turning me into a christian) , as they could see that any furthur coercion would only end up in my rejecting and questioning the whole staus quo even more. They stopped trying after age 9 or so ...

Originally posted by Taoman
Well, I haven't been to China is what I meant. I don't know how practicing Taoists actually act on the environment. What you say is true if we equate Chinese in the main with philosophical Taoism, which I believe not to be the case. My impression is many practice a superstitious form of Taoism and the abrasion between superstition and philossphy is part of Ta ...[text shortened]... some alignment there too I expect. I get the impression you appreciate the great man also.

Not exactly. It is my impression that Marx set socialism back by about 150 years. The influence he exerted on the First International, especially after the expulsion of Bakunin, set the stage for the disastrous, authoritarian path socialism would take in the 20th century. Despite what value he may have in analyzing the defects of capitalism, contemporary socialists would do well to forget about Marx and take a look at some of the abandoned currents of pre-Marxist socialism. Especially what Marx and Engels derisively called 'utopian' socialism.

But if there is any congruence between Taoism and socialism, then I may have to take a closer look at Taoism.

Originally posted by rwingett

But if there is any congruence between Taoism and socialism, then I may have to take a closer look at Taoism.[/b]

from what i understand of it, it's compatible. but then again, it's probably compatible with anything.

Originally posted by rwingett
Not exactly. It is my impression that Marx set socialism back by about 150 years. The influence he exerted on the First International, especially after the expulsion of Bakunin, set the stage for the disastrous, authoritarian path socialism would take in the 20th century. Despite what value he may have in analyzing the defects of capitalism, contemporary so ...[text shortened]... any congruence between Taoism and socialism, then I may have to take a closer look at Taoism.

Interesting comment. I was impressed with his throrough dedication to his "cause", suffering years of poverty, rejection and illness for himself and his family. But I guess that doesn't necessarily make all he said correct.
He is hard to study and I never did so in detail. It all did end up a mess really, despite the good intentions. I am a somewhat confused "socialist" sympathiser in the light of recent historical failures and need guidance really. Any directions on "abandoned currents of pre-Marxist socialism" ?

It was Lao Tzu who wrote "Running a country is like frying small fish". Somewhat enigmatic, but I wonder if that qualifies for socialist tendencies? But more likely Taoist ideas would also "work" in a moderate form of capitalism, or is that an oxymoron?

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
from what i understand of it, it's compatible. but then again, it's probably compatible with anything.

In the wider view the Tao is active, in all processes, successful and failing. creative and dissolving. But the qualities encouraged to be in tune with the creative flow of the Tao would appear to be acting moderately, and seeking benefit for the whole rather than preferencing the individual. Simpliicity, avoiding excess are common themes of acting in concert with the Tao. I expect some political systems and theories would be in more concord than others in the fostering of such a Way.