Soul—Self—“I”

Originally posted by vistesd
Well, I meant “personality” a bit more broadly—to include, for example, tastes and desires.

Nevertheless, your response seems to say that (except for name—which really was a ringer) it is your ego-self-construct that survives in its entirety. Basically, everything that you have made of yourself and your life.

What about the process that lies behind t ...[text shortened]... was his whole “I” that he wanted to live forever, not just some underlying essential soul/self.

If I'm reading it right, I'd say that in the face of all possible ravages of man's existence, his true person will be restored.

From that restored position, the self continues to grow and overflow.

Side answers: all pain and sorrow is removed. There will be nothing to fear (not even fear, itself).

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]Would you bet your life the Bible is 100% true?
So far!

I understand if you believe in an abstract god, the afterlife or anything else... but does it have to be the Bible?
No, but the Bible is the best explanation that I have found, to date.

Do you really believe earth is 6k yrs old...
Who do I look like, Ussher?

... man ...[text shortened]... te contradiction to what could have happened to it over all these several thousand years.

That's what I find incredible. To believe in what 1 book says.
I've been raised with an open mind and to criticize everything and never taking anything as granted. I could never abstrain from reality to start believing anyone just because I've been told or it was written so. Specially when it came into disaccordance with everything I can see and experience.
Maybe I'm wrong. I'll be the first to drink a beer with you in the afterlife, if you are right.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]Does all that information come in the Bible?
Yes. Although what you call 'information,' I call truth.

How do you know anything about that with such certainty?
Because its source has been tested, tried and shown to be true.

Or is it just an opinion?
See response number one. I am certain it will answer your question.[/b]

Because its source has been tested, tried and shown to be true.

The only real answer to this is simply: Not.

I could make exactly the same claim for the Tao Te Ching.

My answer, of course, is as simplistic as your claim. And then we’re down (once again) to the midrashist versus the pretty-much-literalist. I have disputed your interpretations of various scriptural texts many times; as you have mine. But the real dispute is in our approaches.

In the midrashic approach, for example—

“To avoid the trap of idolatry—the illusion of possessing the meaning—Hebrew tradition has introduced the idea of levels of meaning.” (Marc-Alain Ouaknin, The Burnt Book: Reading the Talmud) This is based on the language itself. Hebrew is more of a “depth language” than a “precision” language. Words have layers of meanings, which deepen and expand in association with other words, phrases, etc.

And: “The Book of the beginning is illegible and meaningless. Before the book can be read, it must be composed; the reader is actually a creator. Reading becomes an activity, a production. And so an infinity of books are constantly present in the Book [Torah]. There is not one story but many stories.

“The first function of the reader is to introduce breaks between the letters to form words; between certain words to produce sentences….”

—Ouaknin, ibid.

And: “The scroll of the Torah is written without vowels, so you can read it variously. Without vowels, the consonants bear many meanings and splinter into sparks. That is why the Torah scroll must not be vowelized, for the meaning of each word accords with its vowels. Once vowelized, a word means just one thing. Without vowels, you can understand it in countless, wondrous ways.”

—Bahya ben Asher (13th-14th centuries), quoted in Daniel Matt, The Essential Kabbalah.

Also: “The Torah scroll may not be vowelized—so that we can interpret every single word according to every possible reading.” (Jacob ben Sheshet, quoted by Matt in a footnote to the above quote.)

Early Christian exegetes followed similar principles. Somewhere along the line they got forgotten.

Originally posted by serigado
"Soul" is a metaphor for the trillions of electric impulses that make or thoughts, feelings, memory, etc. When he die, they stop working.
Assuming that a "soul" is something more would be saying that someother unknown, neverseen mechanism would be driving our "self".
But the connection between brain and feelings, emotions, body, etc has been proven.

If ...[text shortened]... nd there is a "soul" indeed, then it not made by any form of matter or energy known yet.

When someone sticks a pin in me, "I" hurt. It doesn't feel metaphorical.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]Your name? (e.g., if you get to heaven, etc., will you have the same name?)
No. Only God knows your true name, despite what people--- including you--- have called you throughout your life on this planet.

Your memories?
You retain your memories.

Your personality traits?
Our personalities are simply how we relate to one anothe ...[text shortened]... n by their own hands. In the same way, our personalities will make us known in the afterlife.[/b]

If we have eternal life, will our memories expand indefinitely to keep pace with the growing experience?

If we had Alzheimer's, will our lost memories be restored?

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
If we have eternal life, will our memories expand indefinitely to keep pace with the growing experience?

If we had Alzheimer's, will our lost memories be restored?

Asked and answered.

Originally posted by vistesd
Because its source has been tested, tried and shown to be true.

The only real answer to this is simply: Not.

I could make exactly the same claim for the Tao Te Ching.

My answer, of course, is as simplistic as your claim. And then we’re down (once again) to the midrashist versus the pretty-much-literalist. I have disputed your interpret ...[text shortened]... ly Christian exegetes followed similar principles. Somewhere along the line they got forgotten.[/b]

The only real answer to this is simply: Not.
Although my scholastic achievments will never make it on any Top Ten CV's, I nonetheless consider the due diligence applied on my end thoughtful enough to render the issue defensibly resolved. Accused of stubbornness by some, I know for myself that my conclusions were wrought via honest pursuit: my hands were open at the onset, ready and willing to throw the Books away. What I found convinced me otherwise. Just as I am now thoroughly convinced that additional discussions covering the same covered ground will not yield any fruit. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Early Christian exegetes followed similar principles. Somewhere along the line they got forgotten.
I agree with much of what you quoted from ben Asher and etc., but I find myself parting ways when it is suggested that 'in possession of many meanings all meaning is lost.'

Without question, however, most of what passes as commentary today is in complete defiance to the actual texts, regardless of their intended malleabilty.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Actually, the work of the mind can be explained using physical terms; the impetus of the mind cannot. In other words, when the mind is contemplating something the self associates with fear, it is possible to see/measure the results of the such contemplation. Beyond that, the mind cannot be explained.

I don't know precisely what part of 'mind' you think can't be explained. Can you elaborate?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
I don't know precisely what part of 'mind' you think can't be explained. Can you elaborate?

Nemesio

The biological measurements of the mind's activities are what some here are suggesting are the explanation of the mind. They have less than half of the story. That is like observing "Starry Night" and presuming to know van Gogh: we only see what impact he had on the canvas, not who he was.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]The only real answer to this is simply: Not.
Although my scholastic achievments will never make it on any Top Ten CV's, I nonetheless consider the due diligence applied on my end thoughtful enough to render the issue defensibly resolved. Accused of stubbornness by some, I know for myself that my conclusions were wrought via honest pursuit: my han ...[text shortened]... today is in complete defiance to the actual texts, regardless of their intended malleabilty.[/b]

The only thing I’m accusing you of is being wrong. 🙂

And you, me.

vistesd,

I intepret your question as what part or parts of man are saved/ reserved in God's full salvation. My answers would come from the Bible the basis of my hope:

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For example—

Your name? (e.g., if you get to heaven, etc., will you have the same name?)
=================================

In the books of Revelation the names of the twelve apostles are written on the twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem -

"And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Rev. 21:13)

Though the visions is a "sign" (Rev. 1:1) still, the significance of the names of James, Peter, Philip, Matthew, etc being preserved, suggest that the original names of people are preserved in eternity.

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Your memories?
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That is a good question. I want to say there is evidence for both a yes and a no. Perhaps the miserable things are completely forgotten but the Christ centered and Christ exaltant things will be.

Basis? "For I am now creating new heavens and a new earth, and the former things will not be remembered, nor will they come up in the heart. But rejoice and exult forever in what I create ..." (Isaiah 65:17,18)

There is something to be said for the enjoyment of God swallowing up the rememberance of past things. On the other hand the eternally learned lessons of the futility of rebellion against God seems to be something remembered:

"Then they will go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me, For their worm will not die, Now will their fire be quenched; And they shall be an abhorence to all flesh" (Isaiah 66:24)

So I think the saved will remember rightly and forget rightly according to God's eternal purpose.

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Your personality traits?
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Yes. After sanctification and transformation by the Holy Spirit, each saved person will made "transparent". In other words today you are "orange." God is working to make that person transparent "orange" - through thier personality traits others see Jesus.

Or say you are "green." Today you are an opaque "green." The New Jerusalem is composed of stones which have all been made transparent (in its symbolism). You are still you in your personality traints yet transparent and translucent so that God shines through you. That is Christ shines through you.

Our personality traits are to be made translucent that the Christ imparted within the saved person can be expressed through those traits.

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Your emotions?
===========================

Yes. How else can we love the Triune God? How else can we love one another?

Same as above - our love must be transformed, sanctified, uplifted, conformed to the image of Christ, made holy, brought into resurrection, deified, and divinized.

God fashioned our mind, our emotion, and our will and has no desire to abliterate them. They need salvation. They need to be permeated with the Holy Spirit and uplifted into resurrection by the indwelling Christ.

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Your thoughts? (Including the thought “I”—and all that you think about that.)
===========================

The leading part of our soul is our mind. God transforms the person by transforming the mind - the way we think.

"And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect." (Rom. 12:2)

God transforms the saved starting with the mind. So the mind, like the emotion, is sanctified, permeated with the Spirit of Jesus, uplifted, freed from bugs, demons, idols, foolishness, self-centeredness, darkness, uneasiness, distrust toward God, and rebellion.

This is a huge subject. I can post only a little on such a large subject. But God's full salvation includes the transformation of the mind, emotion, and will into the image of Christ.

He must do this work gradually. It is best for Him to start in this age while we are alive. And we should not waste time but ASK and ALLOW Christ to transform us a little day by day.

It is His will to do it. So our asking is according to His will.

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Your will?
=======================

Yes. Same that applies for the emotion and the mind applies to the human will.

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Your sense perceptions?
=========================

They will be greatly amplified.

The writer of the book of Hebrews tells the disciples that they have "tasted of the powers of the age to come" (Heb. 6:4). So you should notice the amplified perception of the prophets in the Bible and realize these things were written to also give us a glimpse in the normal deified man. That is made divine, made sons of God in Christ's full salvation:

To enjoy Christ today is to enjoy a foretaste and an appetizer. To enjoy God in Christ today is to enjoy a forestaste of a much fuller taste to come. That is why we should not waste time.

The sooner we get Jesus into us and let Him start working within us the better. We need time for Christ to work Himself into us. He can save us from eternal punishment in a second. But to transform us into His image in our soul requires time - a life time.

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When people hope for individual eternal life, what aspects of themselves exactly do they expect to live forever? If not all of the above (except maybe for name and sense perceptions), how will they know they are still the same individual person? Similarly, by what aspects will they be able to recognize anyone else—if they will?
=============================

To be sanctified wholly in the New Testament means to Christ works His Spirit into all three major components of our being - spirit and soul and body:

"And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:23)

Christ loves your soul. But He needs to sanctify it. He loves your spirit and He loves your body.

I formerly did not read the Bible and thought of etenal life as if we were cloud like vapors existing in some sort of ethereal light. Thank God then I began to read the Bible for myself.

I saw that God's salvation is exceedingly practical. His salvation includes the preserving complete and sanctifying of our spirit, our soul, and our body.

Then His salvation extends into the environment and into the entire creation. It engulfs the universe, the planets, the galaxies. He has eternity to work out His eternal purpose. It is a practical salvation. And His love is over our whole being.




If only part of you gains eternal life, which parts? Which parts do not?

If all of the above, then what differentiates the soul/self from the ego-self-construct that is a product of our self-looping consciousness?

I still don't see anyone answer the question of what memories get carried over. Is it all memories as gathered throughout your life or all memories in the mind at the point of death?
1. If it is point of death then people who loose their memories in old age would presumably enter heaven as babbling idiots.
2. If it is some special sum of life memories then is it really you?

Originally posted by jaywill
vistesd,

I intepret your question as what part or parts of man are saved/ reserved in God's full salvation. My answers would come from the Bible the basis of my hope:

[b]================================
For example—

Your name? (e.g., if you get to heaven, etc., will you have the same name?)
=================================

self-construct that is a product of our self-looping consciousness?[/b]

Correction: "Now" should have been "Nor" in Isaiah 66:24.

" Nor will their fire be quenched; And they shall be an abhorence to all flesh" (Isaiah 66:24)

Originally posted by twhitehead
I still don't see anyone answer the question of what memories get carried over. Is it all memories as gathered throughout your life or all memories in the mind at the point of death?
1. If it is point of death then people who loose their memories in old age would presumably enter heaven as babbling idiots.
2. If it is some special sum of life memories then is it really you?

Apparently you are cleaned from all the bad stuff that causes the memory loss when you die and go to heaven. I have given up. Some people just must believe that or they would collapse. DO you want to be the bringer of such sorrow for showing them the truth?

Originally posted by vistesd
The only thing I’m accusing you of is being wrong. 🙂

And you, me.

Understood. I was simply pre-empting others who would otherwise quickly jump on the 'intellectual honesty' bandwagon.

Oh, and by the way, you're wrong, too.