1. Felicific Forest
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    30 Nov '07 20:32
    SPE SALVI, THE POPE'S ENCYCLICAL ON CHRISTIAN HOPE

    VATICAN CITY, NOV 30, 2007 (VIS) - Benedict XVI's second Encyclical, "Spe Salvi" which is dedicated to the theme of Christian hope, was published today. The document - which has an introduction and eight chapters - begins with a quote from the Letter of St. Paul to the Romans: "spe salvi facti sumus" (in hope we are saved).

    The chapter titles are as follows: "1. Faith is Hope; 2. The concept of faith-based hope in the New Testament and the early Church; 3. Eternal life - what is it?; 4. Is Christian hope individualistic?; 5. The transformation of Christian faith-hope in the modern age; 6. The true shape of Christian hope; 7. 'Settings' for learning and practicing hope: i) Prayer as a school of hope, ii) Action and suffering as settings for learning hope, iii) Judgement as a setting for learning and practicing hope; 8. Mary, Star of Hope."

    The Holy Father explains in his Introduction that "according to the Christian faith, 'redemption' - salvation - is not simply a given. Redemption is offered to us in the sense that we have been given hope, trustworthy hope, by virtue of which we can face our present: the present, even if it is arduous, can be lived and accepted if it leads towards a goal, if we can be sure of this goal, and if this goal is great enough to justify the effort of the journey."

    Hence, "a distinguishing mark of Christians" is "the fact that they have a future: ... they know ... that their life will not end in emptiness. ... The Gospel is not merely a communication of things that can be known - it is one that makes things happen and is life-changing. The dark door of time, of the future, has been thrown open. The one who has hope lives differently; the one who hopes has been granted the gift of a new life."

    "To come to know God - the true God - means to receive hope." This was well understood by the early Christians, such as the Ephesians who before encountering Christ had many gods but "were without hope." The problem faced by Christians of long standing, the Holy Father says, is that they "have grown accustomed to, ... have almost ceased to notice that we possess the hope that ensues from a real encounter with this God."

    The Pope recalls that Jesus "did not bring a message of social revolution" like Spartacus, and that "he was not engaged in a fight for political liberation like Barabbas of Bar-Kochba." He brought "something totally different: ... an encounter with the living God, ... an encounter with a hope stronger than the sufferings of slavery, a hope which therefore transformed life and the world from within, ... even if external structures remained unaltered."

    Christ makes us truly free. "We are not slaves of the universe" or of "the laws of matter and of evolution." We are free because "heaven is not empty," because the Lord of the universe is God "Who in Jesus has revealed Himself as Love."

    Christ is the "true philosopher" Who "tells us who man truly is and what a man must do in order to be truly human." He shows us "the way beyond death; only someone able to do this is a true teacher of life." He offers us a hope that is, at one and the same time, expectation and presence because "the fact that this future exists changes the present."

    The Pope remarks that "perhaps many people reject the faith today simply because they do not find the prospect of eternal life attractive. ... The present-day crisis of faith," he continues, "is essentially a crisis of Christian hope. ... The restoration of the lost Paradise is no longer expected from faith," but from technical and scientific progress whence, it its believed, the "kingdom of man" will emerge. Hope thus becomes "faith in progress" founded on two pillars: reason and freedom which "seem to guarantee by themselves, by virtue of their intrinsic goodness, a new and perfect human community."

    The Pope mentions "two essential stages in the political realization of this hope:" the French and the Marxist Revolutions. Faced with the French Revolution, "the Europe of the Enlightenment ... had cause to reflect anew on reason and freedom," while the proletarian revolution left behind "a trail of appalling destruction." Marx's fundamental error was that "he forgot man and he forgot man's freedom. ... He thought that once the economy had been put right, everything would automatically be put right. His real error is materialism. ... Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope. ... Man can never be redeemed simply" by an external structure, "man is redeemed by love," an unconditional, absolute love: "Man's great, true hope which holds firm in spite of all disappointments can only be God - God Who has loved us and continues to love us to the end."

    The Pope then identifies four "settings" for learning and practicing hope. The first of these is prayer. "When no one listens to me any more, God still listens to me. ... When there is no longer anyone to help me, ... He can help me."

    Alongside prayer is action: "Hope in a Christian sense is always hope for others as well. It is an active hope, in which we struggle ... towards a brighter and more humane world." Yet only if I know that "my own life and history in general ... are held firm by the indestructible power of Love" can "I always continue to hope."

    Suffering is another of the "settings" for learning hope. "Certainly we must do whatever we can to reduce suffering," however "it is not by sidestepping or fleeing from suffering that we are healed, but rather by our capacity for accepting it, maturing through it and finding meaning through union with Christ, Who suffered with infinite love." Another fundamental aspect is to suffer with others and for others. "A society unable to accept its suffering members ... is a cruel and inhuman society," he writes.

    Finally, another setting for learning hope is the Judgement of God. "There is a resurrection of the flesh. There is justice. There is an 'undoing' of past suffering, a reparation that sets things aright." The Pope writes of his conviction "that the question of justice constitutes the essential argument, or in any case the strongest argument, in favor of faith in eternal life." It is, indeed, impossible "that the injustice of history should be the final word. ... God is justice and creates justice. ... And in His justice there is also grace. ... Grace does not cancel out justice. ... Evildoers, in the end, do not sit at table at the eternal banquet beside their victims without distinction, as though nothing had happened."

    ENC/SPE SALVI/... VIS 071130 (1160)

    ********************************************************
    ENCYCLICAL LETTER
    SPE SALVI
    OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
    BENEDICT XVI

    Introduction

    1. “SPE SALVI facti sumus”—in hope we were saved, says Saint Paul to the Romans, and likewise to us (Rom 8:24). According to the Christian faith, “redemption”—salvation—is not simply a given. Redemption is offered to us in the sense that we have been given hope, trustworthy hope, by virtue of which we can face our present: the present, even if it is arduous, can be lived and accepted if it leads towards a goal, if we can be sure of this goal, and if this goal is great enough to justify the effort of the journey. Now the question immediately arises: what sort of hope could ever justify the statement that, on the basis of that hope and simply because it exists, we are redeemed? And what sort of certainty is involved here?


    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html
  2. Joined
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    01 Dec '07 00:13
    Must... not... fall... asleep...
  3. Donationkirksey957
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    01 Dec '07 00:50
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Must... not... fall... asleep...
    Yo, lets me help you stay awake, my brotha. Here is a little commencement address on the theme of hope by one of my Baptist brethren who actually has a damn brain in his head. I think it will resonate with you.

    http://college.georgetown.edu/alumni/gradarchives/address2007.html
  4. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    01 Dec '07 01:072 edits
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    SPE SALVI, THE POPE'S ENCYCLICAL ON CHRISTIAN HOPE

    VATICAN CITY, NOV 30, 2007 (VIS) - Benedict XVI's second Encyclical, "Spe Salvi" which is dedicated to the theme of Christian hope, was published today. The document - which has an introduction and eight chapters - begins with a quote from the Letter of St. Paul to the Romans: "spe salvi facti sumus" (in
    The Pope's analysis is faulty and his conclusions are blatantly false. This encyclical reads more like the incoherent ramblings of a mad man rather than a learned essay.
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    01 Dec '07 02:01
    See Pope hope. Hope, Pope, hope.


    ---------
    This stuff is insufferable, ivanhoe.
  6. Felicific Forest
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    01 Dec '07 12:16
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    The Pope's analysis is faulty and his conclusions are blatantly false.
    Do you have any arguments or reasoning to present that led you to these conclusions ?
  7. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    01 Dec '07 16:2614 edits
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Do you have any arguments or reasoning to present that led you to these conclusions ?
    Let's start here.

    1. Faith is Hope
    2. The concept of faith-based hope in the New Testament and the early Church

    It's immediately evident from the first two chapter titles that the encyclical is based upon an equivocation, that faith both is (by title 1) and is not (by title 2) hope.

    This observation is reinforced by the tell-tale symptom of intentional equivocation (namely, an ad-hoc syntactical construction of a new term based on unconventional punctuation or juxtaposition of terms, such as the common "'True' Christian", a sort of linguistic alchemy by which the author attempts to make one term behave as both copper and gold) we see in title 5, "The transformation of Christian faith-hope in the modern age."

    We now have four terms in play: faith, hope, faith-based hope, faith-hope. Two of these the author explicitly equates, after which the set becomes collectively redundant, inconsistent or incoherent, depending on which particular branch of the equivocation the author takes at any given time (e.g., what sense does it make to speak of faith-based hope, which in the author's view must logically be hope-based hope and could possibly be [hope-based hope]-based hope?).
  8. Felicific Forest
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    02 Dec '07 13:384 edits
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Let's start here.

    1. [b]Faith
    is Hope
    2. The concept of faith-based hope in the New Testament and the early Church

    It's immediately evident from the first two chapter titles that the encyclical is based upon an equivocation, that faith both is (by title 1) and is not (by title 2) hope.

    This observation is reinforced by the must logically be hope-based hope and could possibly be [hope-based hope]-based hope?).[/b]
    So much for Christendom then. (Why hasn't anybody thought of that before in the past two thousand years ? ........ )

    You got more of that stuff ?
  9. The sky
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    02 Dec '07 14:08
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    See Pope hope. Hope, Pope, hope.
    This sounds almost like Jandl.

    Ottos Mops

    Ottos Mops trotzt
    Otto: fort Mops fort
    Ottos Mops hopst fort
    Otto: soso

    Otto holt Koks
    Otto holt Obst
    Otto horcht
    Otto: Mops Mops
    Otto hofft

    Ottos Mops klopft
    Otto: komm Mops komm
    Ottos Mops kommt
    Ottos Mops kotzt
    Otto: ogottogott

    -Ernst Jandl


    Otto's Pope

    Otto's Pope knocks
    Otto: hope Pope hope
    Otto's Pope hopes
    Otto's Pope pops
    Otto: Oh God!
  10. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    02 Dec '07 16:153 edits
    Originally posted by ivanhoe

    You got more of that stuff ?
    Like the veritable bounty of fish and bread provided by the miraculous work of Jesus, this encyclical leaves no analyst hungry for fallacy.


    You don't really want me to analyze this bit, do you:
    "When no one listens to me any more, God still listens to me. ... When there is no longer anyone to help me, ... He can help me."
  11. Felicific Forest
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    05 Dec '07 13:456 edits
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Like the veritable bounty of fish and bread provided by the miraculous work of Jesus, this encyclical leaves no analyst hungry for fallacy.


    You don't really want me to analyze this bit, do you:
    "When no one listens to me any more, God still listens to me. ... When there is no longer anyone to help me, ... He can help me."
    Treating words, notions, and their meanings, like numbers in a one-dimensional mathematical way is quite a breakthrough, I must say. Whether it will bring us closer to the spiritual truth is something I doubt very much, but keep up with your secular fundamentalist ways of dealing with things .... you'll end up somewhere, someday ... I guess ....


    Dr.S: You don't really want me to analyze this bit, do you:
    "When no one listens to me any more, God still listens to me. ... When there is no longer anyone to help me, ... He can help me."

    No, of course not good Doctor.

    Have a nice day ...
  12. Standard memberNemesio
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    05 Dec '07 18:57
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Treating words, notions, and their meanings, like numbers in a one-dimensional mathematical way is quite a breakthrough, I must say. Whether it will bring us closer to the spiritual truth is something I doubt very much, but keep up with your secular fundamentalist ways of dealing with things .... you'll end up somewhere, someday ... I guess ....
    If it were reasonably possible to have a discussion with you (rather than the sort of post
    that you typed above), then I'm sure there are many people on this site who would love to
    discuss the encyclical.

    However, since you are rabidly opposed to examining the possible faults in your own beliefs,
    this makes discussion impossible with you.

    If you are (suddenly) opened to it, then I'm game to begin.

    Nemesio
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