1. Joined
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    03 Sep '07 19:33
    I see this section of the forums as Spirituality but increasingly I see posts concerning Religion. I'm not saying that Religion doesn't lend itself to having spiritual events but we can argue about Religion til the cows come home.

    To be truly spiritual aren't we supposed to find spirituality in our heart and soul as opposed to a collection box in a church, mosque or other venue?

    Besides, there are too many corrupt individuals bending the word of Religion to suit their own ends, but a truly spiritual person doesn't need to.
  2. Joined
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    03 Sep '07 21:00
    Originally posted by ReddersP
    I see this section of the forums as Spirituality but increasingly I see posts concerning Religion. I'm not saying that Religion doesn't lend itself to having spiritual events but we can argue about Religion til the cows come home.

    To be truly spiritual aren't we supposed to find spirituality in our heart and soul as opposed to a collection box in a chur ...[text shortened]... g the word of Religion to suit their own ends, but a truly spiritual person doesn't need to.
    You are close to a critical truth. Spirituality involves the human spirit.

    Most people think that human spirit is identical with human soul. So we have a particular problem here. The spirit of man is not identical with the soul of man.

    To make matters more difficult, the spirit of man naturally is comatose, deadened, not functioning. It is in a death stupor. It needs to be reborn. It needs to be enlivened.

    Spirituality involves the making alive of a component of man which is born into this world deadened and in a comatose state.
  3. Joined
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    04 Sep '07 13:55
    Thats a profound statement.

    So, are you saying that the soul is the empty vessel and the spirit is the fuel?

    or are they entirely unrelated?
  4. Joined
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    04 Sep '07 14:11
    Originally posted by ReddersP
    I see this section of the forums as Spirituality but increasingly I see posts concerning Religion. I'm not saying that Religion doesn't lend itself to having spiritual events but we can argue about Religion til the cows come home.

    To be truly spiritual aren't we supposed to find spirituality in our heart and soul as opposed to a collection box in a chur ...[text shortened]... g the word of Religion to suit their own ends, but a truly spiritual person doesn't need to.
    You are definitly on to something here. For example, Jesus only had harsh words for the hypocritical religious leaders of his day and it was they who had him nailed to the cross!! Having said that, you would then think that Chirst was against religion in general, no? However, that was not the case. He still worshiped at the temple and defended the reason that it existed in the first place which was to have it a place of prayer and worship. It was a venue for connecting to God himself and not a place to worship and revere the religious leaders who did not practice what they preached. This is the reason he drove out the money changeres in the temple. Also, he told his disciple Peter that he would be the rock upon which he would build his church. Again, God is not looking to destroy the church, rather, he is seeking to refine it and get it back on coarse which is to seek God and connect with him and to reach out to dying and lost world.
  5. tinyurl.com/ywohm
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    06 Sep '07 05:58
    Originally posted by ReddersP
    I see this section of the forums as Spirituality but increasingly I see posts concerning Religion. I'm not saying that Religion doesn't lend itself to having spiritual events but we can argue about Religion til the cows come home.

    To be truly spiritual aren't we supposed to find spirituality in our heart and soul as opposed to a collection box in a chur ...[text shortened]... g the word of Religion to suit their own ends, but a truly spiritual person doesn't need to.
    Why are you excluding the middle ground? Many people, because they are social beings, find that they can increase or improve upon their spirituality within a community of like-minded persons -- within a religion. They travel the path together and help each other along the way. If religion were simply a collection box, they could mail a check somewhere and be done with it. Religions meet the spiritual needs of many people.
  6. Joined
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    12 Sep '07 10:492 edits
    Originally posted by ReddersP
    Thats a profound statement.

    So, are you saying that the soul is the empty vessel and the spirit is the fuel?

    or are they entirely unrelated?
    Man's being is a vessel. And part of this vessel is the soul. Another related part of this vessel is the human spirit. This vessel of man has three components which correspond to the three realms in which it must function.

    The human body allows man to communicate with the physical world.
    The human soul allows man to interact with the psychological world.
    The human spirit allows man to contact, to touch the spiritual world.

    So this vessel is of three parts spirit, soul, and body (1 Thess 5:23).

    "And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:23)

    Here we see that man is a tripartite being composed of spirit and soul and body. And the three components make up the "complete" man.

    But where does it say that man is a vessel? It is both implied and explicitly stated. Here are some of the explicit references:

    "In order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He had before prepared unto glory." (Romans 9:23)

    Above God has prepared human vessels to contain His manifested glory.

    Even more clear is 2 Corinthians 4:7

    But we [the apostles and believers] have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us." (2 Cor. 4:7)

    Paul says that his humanity is an earthen vessel. Christ's life and nature as conveyed into by the Spirit of Christ is the treasure put within the earthen vessel of his humanity.

    Then we also have Paul teaching Timothy that he is a vessel set aside for God:

    "If therefore anyone cleanses himself from these, he will be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, useful to the master, prepared unto every good work." (2 Tim. 2:21)

    For the same reason the Apostle Paul discribes the believers as a temple of the Holy Spirit which is God.

    " Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?" (1 Cor. 6:19)

    The human being is a vessel, a container. Just as the Jewish temple had three compartments - the outer court, the holy place, and the holy of holies, so the human being has the body, the soul, and the spirit.

    The human spirit is the kernel, the nucleus of man. It is the innermost portion of man into which the Triune God begins to dispense Himself into man's entire being.
  7. Subscribermdhall
    Mr Palomar
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    12 Sep '07 12:32
    It sure is nice to see that the Bible thumpers are always ready with a quick answer for everything, /sigh.

    Religions are man-made institutions for continuing a set of "truths" they have collected and attributed to a "Religious Action Figure". They sometimes mean well, but often have lost site of the spirit amongst the dogma. Churches (like any marketing campaign) do their job of programming their disciples with these core ideas usually coupled with some local color.

    For example, Southern Baptists have been known to use faith healing and snake tricks to "prove" the power of their god. The powers of Intention and Perception are truly amazing and can be seen in action at a Political rally as easily as any Church.

    So, the intellectual religious followers enjoy spending their days in "apologetics" always searching for answers to every conceivable question people may ask. That's where they miss the point in my opinion.

    You do not find spirit in a religious institution by following a set of rules.
    You find spirit by journeying into yourself and finding the truth within.

    The sad part is that if you read what Christ said apart from the rest of the new testament, you really don't find much of the fundamentalism that is essential to a Religious institute. You mostly see a lot of quotes of Christ trying to get people to self-actualize and not become self-reliant on him.

    But how can the Institutes keep you under their thumb unless you feel a lot of guilt and self-loathing that will keep you listening/eating their programming (dare I call it propaganda?).

    The Soul/Spirit post was a pretty sad attempt to confuse the issue King David. Lets stay out of semantic arguments and call it like it is. You are doing your holy part of "Witnessing" because you have been programmed to think that if you can somehow get enough "notches" on your spiritual belt, that someone upstairs will reward you...
  8. Joined
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    12 Sep '07 22:091 edit
    Originally posted by mdhall
    It sure is nice to see that the Bible thumpers are always ready with a quick answer for everything, /sigh.

    Religions are man-made institutions for continuing a set of "truths" they have collected and attributed to a "Religious Action Figure". They sometimes mean well, but often have lost site of the spirit amongst the dogma. Churches (like any marketing enough "notches" on your spiritual belt, that someone upstairs will reward you...
    Eight paragraphs.

    Eight strawmen.

    No real effective rebuttal.

    Now that's sad.
  9. Joined
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    12 Sep '07 22:216 edits
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    The sad part is that if you read what Christ said apart from the rest of the new testament, you really don't find much of the fundamentalism that is essential to a Religious institute. You mostly see a lot of quotes of Christ trying to get people to self-actualize and not become self-reliant on him.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    The topic I was addressing was man as a vessel, a living container meant to be filled with God.

    If you derive from this an overall defense of "Fundamentalism" depending on what you mean by that, you're not addressing the specifics of my post.

    I will address the specifics of your general insinuation though. That man is a vessel meant to contain the life and nature of God is clearly seen in the words of Jesus Christ in many places. Here's one:

    "Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

    Jesus and His Father will come to the lover of Jesus and make an abode with that person. That means that that person becomes an abode of God - of the Father and the Son. That of course makes him a living vessel. As Paul confirmed that the believers in Corinth's had bodies which were temples of the Holy Spirit.

    The previous verses simply confirm what Jesus taught in John 14.
  10. Joined
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    12 Sep '07 22:321 edit
    mdhall,

    +++++++++++++++++++++
    For example, Southern Baptists have been known to use faith healing and snake tricks to "prove" the power of their god. The powers of Intention and Perception are truly amazing and can be seen in action at a Political rally as easily as any Church.
    ++++++++++++++++++


    There's Bible thumpers and there's irrelevant strawman argument thumpers like yourself.

    Sure, I'll thump on the Bible if it gives me some truth. Can't find any answers in anything you've presented yet.
  11. Joined
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    12 Sep '07 22:451 edit
    mdhall,

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    You mostly see a lot of quotes of Christ trying to get people to self-actualize and not become self-reliant on him.
    +++++++++++++++++++++


    And "not become self-reliant on him" ?? What is "self-reliant" on him?

    I'm not sure that you yourself understand what you are trying to write.
  12. Joined
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    13 Sep '07 03:30
    Originally posted by mdhall
    It sure is nice to see that the Bible thumpers are always ready with a quick answer for everything, /sigh.

    Religions are man-made institutions for continuing a set of "truths" they have collected and attributed to a "Religious Action Figure". They sometimes mean well, but often have lost site of the spirit amongst the dogma. Churches (like any marketing ...[text shortened]... enough "notches" on your spiritual belt, that someone upstairs will reward you...
    Warning.

    This post is too intelligently written and contains waaaayyyy to much logic to belong in the Spirituality forum.
  13. Joined
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    22 Sep '07 22:02
    Well gentlemen, it has been some days since I originally posted my question of spirituality vs Religion and it would appear that collectively we managed to have a religious debate.

    Whilst I don't doubt that Jesus himself has had some truely wonderfully uplifting quotes attributed to him, I begin to wonder Jaywill, do you suppose we shall find the same fine teachings in religions other than Christianity?

    If not, does it suggest that only a Christian can be truely spiritual?

    Are we saying that in order to be spiritual unless we recognise GOD we cannot be spiritual?
  14. Joined
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    22 Sep '07 23:02
    Originally posted by ReddersP
    Well gentlemen, it has been some days since I originally posted my question of spirituality vs Religion and it would appear that collectively we managed to have a religious debate.

    Whilst I don't doubt that Jesus himself has had some truely wonderfully uplifting quotes attributed to him, I begin to wonder Jaywill, do you suppose we shall find the same fi ...[text shortened]...

    Are we saying that in order to be spiritual unless we recognise GOD we cannot be spiritual?
    I'm sorry ReddersP. I got distracted from your discussion.

    I need some time to pray and consider how best to answer your questions.
  15. DonationPawnokeyhole
    Krackpot Kibitzer
    Right behind you...
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    22 Sep '07 23:11
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Eight paragraphs.

    Eight strawmen.

    No real effective rebuttal.

    Now that's sad.
    No doubt, dogmatic assertion, based on personal conviction, is superior to all arguments.
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