Spong's lament

Originally posted by josephw
You contradict yourself.

You have no absolute truth, yet you espose a truth.

You follow Jesus with absolutely no certainty of salvation.

Sorry, but I KNOW I'm saved NOW! My relationship with God is sound and secure.

how do you know you followed the steps necessary to save yourself? did god tell you that? did a priest or a pastor tell you that? did the bible tell you that?

how do you know that the bible is true? several books were left out of the bible. catholics gathered and decided some books are to be put in the bible and some not. years after the events happened. were they also inspired by god? did god inspire them to put Luke in the big book, a person that if i remember correctly, never even met jesus. paul was a persecuter of jesus but paul claims jesus saved him. how do WE know that? mary magdalene is portrayed by christians as a whore(although no book in the bible says she is the whore who washed jesus feet or was saved from stoning) yet she stood by his cross. why then we believe one thing and not others?
why is it so absurd to realize that the bible was written foremost by men, mysoginistic and xenophobe men that may or may not have been inspired by god. and then why is it absurd to regard all non-essential stuff with skepticism and realize that the only thing important is that jesus sacrificed himself and told us to love each other.?

You contradict yourself.
You have no absolute truth, yet you espose a truth.
where do i contradict myself? i say i have no absolute truth, yes. that doesn't mean there is no truth at all.

You follow Jesus with absolutely no certainty of salvation.
yes, i am not so cocky as to presume to know what J dude is thinking, to force him to think a certain thing. there is no such thing as "i am saved now". there is only "i am working as we speak towards redemption, enlightment, and a rich life" one is only saved or not after his death. if not, you could go around and killing people and you would not be saved anymore so what is the point of claiming such a thing now/

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
how do you know you followed the steps necessary to save yourself? did god tell you that? did a priest or a pastor tell you that? did the bible tell you that?

how do you know that the bible is true? several books were left out of the bible. catholics gathered and decided some books are to be put in the bible and some not. years after the events happened ...[text shortened]... eople and you would not be saved anymore so what is the point of claiming such a thing now/

"...that doesn't mean there is no truth at all."

Truth is truth. Absolutely.

Originally posted by PawnChop
that's because christians aren't happy with non-believers living their life in peace, they have to intrude and impose their belief system on everyone else: abortion,contraception, homsexuality, stem cell research, evolution etc, all are pervaded by the stench of fundamentalist christians.
And then we have politicians who believe in the rapture and who pot ...[text shortened]... ep interest on what you guys are going to plan next and why you beieve the things that you do.

Wow, you sound angry too. let's see, you embrace taking life before he/she is born, 'wrapping' the furniture (which I have no problem with, BTW), hairy men bu,...well, never-mind..., bioethical research (which, BTW, I have no problems with as long as babies aren't harvested and killed), evolution (which I believe in to a certain degree, but I didn't come from a primordial sleeze pit), and etc.

Do Islamic terrorists smell like roses? Al Qaeda and Iran want nuclear bombs, and they aren't Christian; therefore, do you feel the same about them?

Bless you, my brother....

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"...that doesn't mean there is no truth at all."

Truth is truth. Absolutely.[/b]

"Killing is wrong"

is this true? is it absolute?

Originally posted by dystoniac

Do Islamic terrorists smell like roses? Al Qaeda and Iran want nuclear bombs, and they aren't Christian; therefore, do you feel the same about them?

you embrace taking life before he/she is born,

I dunno I've never sniffed one to be honest. Besides anyone who wants nukes needs their heads examined.

Particularly those who follow the Abrahamic dogmas, as they all seem to, well fundamentalists anyway, believe in absolute right and wrong, but with no consistency though. There is never any shades of gray, where as if you view the world from a critical point of view there is no black or white everything is gray...

As to the other bit, depends on how you define life really doesn't it..... Personally I don't view my snot as life, but it's got similar cognitive capacity and biological properties as a child within the first few weeks...... Slightly exaggerated I know, but its just a point.....

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
you, like always and similar to some atheists, deal in absolutes.

god SAID that. god WANTS that. god has a plan. god COMMANDS it.
atheists(some) say "the earth wasn't created in 6 days so the bible is lying about jesus as well." "the bible thought us to kill adulterers so we must discard any moral guideline that might exist in other parts of the bible" ...[text shortened]... hat jazz religious folks claim it is absolutely necessary to do in order to be "saved"

i thought only Sith lords deal in absolutes!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i thought only Sith lords deal in absolutes!

dunno where that came from but you do know that siths are the bad guys?
so unless they are absolutely committed to bend every rule society throws at them, they do not deal in absolutes.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i thought only Sith lords deal in absolutes!

That was one of the worst lines in the movie. It was George Lucas trying to score a cheap point on Geo. W. Bush.

Originally posted by rwingett
Martin Luther, in an attempt to revitalize Christianity, tacked his 95 theses to the door of the Wittenberg Church. Spong feels that we are at another such crossroads, where Christianity must make itself relevant to a modern age or risk dying out. To that effect he has come up with a comparatively modest set of 12 theses.

1. Theism, as a way of d ...[text shortened]... ed as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.

Source: Wikipedia (of course).

All 12 are spot on. They are also the nightmare of the orthodox, for the orthodox believe through praxis that if these relevant truths are embraced then Christianity must be lost.

Nothing would be further from the truth. Christianity is lost in its current dogmatic goosestep.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
That was one of the worst lines in the movie. It was George Lucas trying to score a cheap point on Geo. W. Bush.

lol, very funny, you reckon George W is a Sith lord, hard to see the darkside is!

Originally posted by Badwater
All 12 are spot on. They are also the nightmare of the orthodox, for the orthodox believe through praxis that if these relevant truths are embraced then Christianity must be lost.

Nothing would be further from the truth. Christianity is lost in its current dogmatic goosestep.

Christianity was lost within the first century. Everything that followed was the calcification of the exterior mythology, which came at the expense of the actual message. What we are left with is a dead, but comforting (to some), ritual that contains almost no vestige of the original man. In their zeal to ascribe greater and greater deeds to their conception of Jesus, the early Christians were left with a mere doppleganger.

Originally posted by rwingett
Christianity was lost within the first century. Everything that followed was the calcification of the exterior mythology, which came at the expense of the actual message. What we are left with is a dead, but comforting (to some), ritual that contains almost no vestige of the original man. In their zeal to ascribe greater and greater deeds to their conception of Jesus, the early Christians were left with a mere doppleganger.

an absolute piece of nonsense, Christianity in the first century of its inception was the most profound and dynamic teaching to have effect, anywhere or ever since. it was not until the third or fourth centuary that its tenets were corrupted and it essentially became a mere formality, that it was alive and dynamic even up until this time cannot be disputed, in fact its repercussions have echoed down through the ages and are still felt today, indeed it was not until the nineteenth century and on an unsound basis, (even yet we are waiting for evidence from higher critics on their assertions), that these tenets were challenged. assertions that even you yourself are making with regard to mythology and such like. perhaps you have some evidence with which to substantiate your claims? or perhaps i have misunderstood your meaning. but that Christians are for the most essentially nominal and that modern Christianity is probably unrecognisable to first century Christianity, i do not think can be denied.

Originally posted by rwingett
Christianity was lost within the first century. Everything that followed was the calcification of the exterior mythology, which came at the expense of the actual message. What we are left with is a dead, but comforting (to some), ritual that contains almost no vestige of the original man. In their zeal to ascribe greater and greater deeds to their conception of Jesus, the early Christians were left with a mere doppleganger.

I tend to think that Christianity started becoming lost in the Enlightenment.

The masses could believe/be persuaded to believe everything that was taught to
them at face value. Since the Enlightenment it has been harder to ignore natural and
scientific truths, although it is noteworthy how many people still do.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
lol, very funny, you reckon George W is a Sith lord, hard to see the darkside is!

Sigh...how much it would lower the stature of the Sith if GWB was their leader. Just imagine that redneck accent coming from under Sidious' cowl. "I'm the decider!" 😛

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Finally, at the end of this journey, Jesus,
__Will you embrace me
____Inside the ultimate reality
______That I call God
________In whom I live
__________And move
____________And have my being?
For that, Jesus, is my goal in this book."

Strange.

I feel sorry for anyone who claims to be a Christian, yet doesn't understand that the r ...[text shortened]... ory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

You wasted your money.[/b]

Well said! 🙂