Starlight

Originally posted by sonhouse
Can you deny a real god could talk to every human being on the planet at the same time in whatever language they speak, even if that person was deaf? Are you saying your god could never do that because it is so weak?

My point is you cannot deny that and still have an omniscient god. And that means all the OCD about religions are entirely man made, by admittedly creative and charismatic individuals thousands of years ago.

God can do anything, not denying that. What and why God does things I
can guess at, unlike you I don't know.
Kelly

Originally posted by stellspalfie
having faith that a ball when thrown in the air will return to earth is evidence based faith. believing 100% in a christian god is a leap of faith as there is no definitive proof of his existence.

i have a question for you - if 20,000 fossils are dug up showing all the stages of man from ape to human. will you still believe in a young earth?

So tell me if you had definitive proof, would you have faith?
Faith always gives you two things, a reason to accept, or reject.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
So tell me if you had definitive proof, would you have faith?
Faith always gives you two things, a reason to accept, or reject.
Kelly

yes i would have faith in god if i was given definitive proof. you didnt answer my question.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
having faith that a ball when thrown in the air will return to earth is evidence based faith. believing 100% in a christian god is a leap of faith as there is no definitive proof of his existence.

i have a question for you - if 20,000 fossils are dug up showing all the stages of man from ape to human. will you still believe in a young earth?

The existence of the Holy Bible, the heavens, earth, and all of creation, the Christian religion, the Shroud of Turin, and us Christians are evidences and proofs of the existence of God. However, since God is an invisible spirit, we are required to also believe and have faith in His existence.

This is no different than seeing a famous painting without seeing the artist painting it and still to believe and put faith that it is the work of a certain artist based on the circumstantial evidences and proofs.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
The existence of the Holy Bible, the heavens, earth, and all of creation, the Christian religion, the Shroud of Turin, and us Christians are evidences and proofs of the existence of God. However, since God is an invisible spirit, we are required to also believe and have faith in His existence.

This is no different than seeing a famous painting without ...[text shortened]... the work of a certain artist based on the circumstantial evidences and proofs.

The Instructor

could you explain how any of your examples prove 100% that god exists? without taking a leap of faith.


your analogy sucks. a painting makes no extraordinary claims. it doesnt cost me anything personally to trust that an art gallery is not faking the painting, in fact it would be extraordinary, abnormal if the painting wasnt what we thought, as there is not much precedent for paintings turning out to be fake. however your religion makes all kinds of weird and wonderfully extraordinary claims, it ask me to believe and change my life and opinions. if a painting also asked that of me, im sure i would be a lot more demanding about the truth of the paintings history

Originally posted by KellyJay
God can do anything, not denying that. What and why God does things I
can guess at, unlike you I don't know.
Kelly

I know 'faith' is a crutch invented by men, like "I've got a swell bridge for sale in brooklyn', 'the check is in the mail'. How 21st century people continue to fall for that crap indicates one thing: Humans are not as smart as they are cracked up to be. Gullible is the term.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
could you explain how any of your examples prove 100% that god exists? without taking a leap of faith.


your analogy sucks. a painting makes no extraordinary claims. it doesnt cost me anything personally to trust that an art gallery is not faking the painting, in fact it would be extraordinary, abnormal if the painting wasnt what we thought, as ther ...[text shortened]... ked that of me, im sure i would be a lot more demanding about the truth of the paintings history

We were never talking about 100% proof of anything. We were talking about enough circumstantial evidence and proof that believing and having faith is not unreasonable.

I doubt that there is a perfect analogy, but the main point is that an extraordinary painting demands an extraordinary artist or painter. So that someone with the correct knowledge of the style and ability of the artist can pick out the fake. Also an airplane demands a designer, a building demands a builder, and a creation demands a creator. So I believe an extraordinary creation demand an extraordinary creator, like God.

I believe that these are just a few of the evidences that make it not unreasonable for me to believe and have faith in the existence of the Christian God.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
I doubt that there is a perfect analogy, but the main point is that an extraordinary painting demands an extraordinary artist or painter. So that someone with the correct knowledge of the style and ability of the artist can pick out the fake. Also an airplane demands a designer, a building demands a builder, and a creation demands a creator. So I believe an extraordinary creation demand an extraordinary creator, like God.

Still thinking like a human, eh?

No wonder your God lives in a tiny little box called your imagination.

My God can create the entire universe without making it obvious that a God did it.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Still thinking like a human, eh?

No wonder your God lives in a tiny little box called your imagination.

My God can create the entire universe without making it obvious that a God did it.

Or in fact leaving any sign of his existence at all...

Originally posted by sonhouse
I know 'faith' is a crutch invented by men, like "I've got a swell bridge for sale in brooklyn', 'the check is in the mail'. How 21st century people continue to fall for that crap indicates one thing: Humans are not as smart as they are cracked up to be. Gullible is the term.

Faith is the ONLY thing that can save humans.

Your 'knowledge' of faith is like a dried up well. Too bad you cannot see past your arrogance, ignorance and ego, even to satisfy your own thirst.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Or in fact leaving any sign of his existence at all...

Precisely correct. Otherwise free will would have no meaning.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Faith is the ONLY thing that can save humans.

Your 'knowledge' of faith is like a dried up well. Too bad you cannot see past your arrogance, ignorance and ego, even to satisfy your own thirst.

Save humans from what?

Having our imaginary souls executed or tortured by your psychotic imaginary god in an imaginary
afterlife...?


There are far too many real problems needing real solutions to waste time on imagined ones.

Faith is part of the problem, as is your promotion of it.

There are a near infinite number of possibilities and only a very small finite subset is actually true.
Without evidence to guide you faith is just blind guessing and will be almost always wrong.

Faith is worse than useless, it doesn't just fail to help gain knowledge it impedes it.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Precisely correct. Otherwise free will would have no meaning.

Come again?

The fact that the world is spherical (ish) doesn't prevent people from believing it is flat.

God leaving evidence of it's existence doesn't force people to believe it exists and more importantly doesn't force people to worship it.

Knowing that your god existed wouldn't make me worship it...
It would make me want to kill it.

Evidence of gods existence does nothing to hurt free will.

Your argument is a non-sequitur.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Can you deny a real god could talk to every human being on the planet at the same time in whatever language they speak, even if that person was deaf? Are you saying your god could never do that because it is so weak?

My point is you cannot deny that and still have an omniscient god. And that means all the OCD about religions are entirely man made, by admittedly creative and charismatic individuals thousands of years ago.

Good grief. Your post here is bordering on the nonsensical.

"And that means..." What? How can you make a string of true statements and then conclude with something having NOTHING to do with the other statements? No, I cannot deny that "a real god could talk to every human being on the planet at the same time in whatever language they speak, even if that person was deaf", and yes, you're right, I cannot deny that and still have an omniscient god (even though it doesn't have much to do with perception, I think you mean an omnipotent god). And then you end with "And that means all the OCD about religions are entirely man made..." How on earth do you get from one to the other??

The fact is, that He wouldn't do that, not that He couldn't. How many times must I tell you that God would not do such obvious, grandstanding things because to do so would obviate man's free will? Man MUST be free to choose for or against God so that no one can stand at Judgement and claim he didn't have a choice.

And yes, if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. No loopholes here.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Come again?

The fact that the world is spherical (ish) doesn't prevent people from believing it is flat.

God leaving evidence of it's existence doesn't force people to believe it exists and more importantly doesn't force people to worship it.

Knowing that your god existed wouldn't make me worship it...
It would make me want to kill it.

Evidence of gods existence does nothing to hurt free will.

Your argument is a non-sequitur.

No, it is NOT.

Just saying what you are saying doesn't make it true.

If God were proven, beyond any shadow of a doubt, and it was proven that it is the God of Abraham, and the entire Bible was therefore absolutely true, man would be a fool to not take the gift of salvation. Otherwise, he'd be wiped from the earth after death. Given a choice between eternal life and permanent death, which would you take? Put another way, If given a choice on 'Let's Make a Deal' between Door #1 and Door #2 and one had a million dollars behind it and the other door meant YOU pay THEM a million dollars, and you KNEW Door #1 was the door with the cash, how many people on this planet would honestly choose Door #2?

There is NO free will, if you already know which choice is best! (Unless you're insane, I guess, then all bets are off anyways... but then again, how many of us are actually insane? )

Knowing that your god existed wouldn't make me worship it...
It would make me want to kill it.

Okay, I have to be honest here and say I do not know how to react to this other than to say that this just makes obvious the depths of your bias and ignorance about God. Maybe, just maybe, if I was this stupendously ignorant about God, and so biased against him that I would forfeit my life just to flip him the middle finger, then I might (might, mind you!) feel the same way you do. And that just makes me sad, whatever else you have to say about it.