@ghost-of-a-duke saidGood is good, when we do a good thing it is because the thing we do is good. A purely good thing goes a little deeper than that, motivation comes into play, helping someone cross the street out of caring for that person is purely good, while doing it to rob her not so much. 🙂
I don't believe in your God, but still help an old lady across the road for purely altruistic reasons.
How do you account for that? - Obviously I am not trying to earn my way to a God I don't believe exists.
@kellyjay saidBill said only God was good and that before he was saved he would have helped the poor or an old person to earn his way to God.
Good is good, when we do a good thing it is because the thing we do is good. A purely good thing goes a little deeper than that, motivation comes into play, helping someone cross the street out of caring for that person is purely good, while doing it to rob her not so much. 🙂
As an atheist, with no interest in earning my way to a non-existent deity, why do 'I' help an old woman across the street? What is my motivation do you think?
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI was speaking to the motivation of that action, being an Atheist or Theist doesn't alter anything I said.
Bill said only God was good and that before he was saved he would have helped the poor or an old person to earn his way to God.
As an atheist, with no interest in earning my way to a non-existent deity, why do 'I' help an old woman across the street? What is my motivation do you think?
There are belief systems that do suggest one must do more good works than bad to be accepted, some who call themselves Christians believe that as well. It is a common theme among many people, be good enough God will accept you, that however isn't Biblical Christianity. As he pointed out, we cannot be good enough, the bar is too high, and one sin is a failure totally and completely. We cannot achieve a holy good life by our actions or lack of actions before God; he is correct. We need to be redeemed, so it is accepting Christ, who makes us holy, so we can walk with God, not get good enough to walk with God to become holy.
After redemption, we are called to love God and each other in everything we do, not to earn something, but to live life the way it was meant to be lived. Without God being able to do that is humanly impossible, not because it cannot be done. We are to fixated on ourselves, we need grace all of the time, we need to repent when we screw up and move on, sanctification can only start after redemption! So our good works are not to be good enough, Christ did that, ours are to obey God and learn to live life as is it meant to be lived.
@kellyjay saidThanks Kelly. Doesn't answer in any way though the question I put to Bill.
I was speaking to the motivation of that action, being an Atheist or Theist doesn't alter anything I said.
There are belief systems that do suggest one must do more good works than bad to be accepted, some who call themselves Christians believe that as well. It is a common theme among many people, be good enough God will accept you, that however isn't Biblical Christianit ...[text shortened]... ood enough, Christ did that, ours are to obey God and learn to live life as is it meant to be lived.
I'll wait for his answer.
@rbhill saidDoes this mean that you no longer 'have' to help the old lady across the street?
When I was not saved and had no understand of what it means to be Born Again I would have helped the poor or an old person to earn my why to God. But now I now that Jesus paid it all and made a way for me but putting my faith in Him and what He did.
You are still commanded to 'love your neighbor'. Most do this naturally.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWhy are you helping the old lady? It's probably better if she does things for herself as long as possible. Keeping an eye out if she gets into trouble seems like the best thing.
I don't believe in your God, but still help an old lady across the road for purely altruistic reasons.
How do you account for that? - Obviously I am not trying to earn my way to a God I don't believe exists.
@deepthought saidThe old lady was a hypothetical entity representing selfless good acts that are carried out by people with or without religion, negating the argument that such acts are only motivated by a divine being.
Why are you helping the old lady? It's probably better if she does things for herself as long as possible. Keeping an eye out if she gets into trouble seems like the best thing.
But okay, let's make the road extremely busy (seeing as it is a hypothetical scenario) and the old lady unsteady on her feet and anxious about crossing on her own. Is it okay to help her now?
@ghost-of-a-duke saidSure, I was making the point that helping people's a bit tricky. We can have her asking for assistance, at which point it's fine independently of the state of road traffic.
The old lady was a hypothetical entity representing selfless good acts that are carried out by people with or without religion, negating the argument that such acts are only motivated by a divine being.
But okay, let's make the road extremely busy (seeing as it is a hypothetical scenario) and the old lady unsteady on her feet and anxious about crossing on her own. Is it okay to help her now?
@deepthought saidThat's cool. 🙂
Sure, I was making the point that helping people's a bit tricky. We can have her asking for assistance, at which point it's fine independently of the state of road traffic.
Working in 'enablement' I recognise the importance of not forcing dependency and promoting independence as far as possible.