14 Nov '11 14:52>
As the thread with a fairly interesting topic embedded took a few turns away from the point of interest, perhaps we can explore the same in this thread, instead. Bbarr posited the following argument:
It is my contention that the fatal flaw begins in point one, which then leads to other errors. Prior to commencing on anything which follows, the God that exists must be either defined or allowed to be the standard of definition for all that follows. Instead, we don't find out until points 3-5 of alleged properties of the being from point one.
Once that issue is resolved, I also believe it will be shown that bbarr errs on point two, with an assumption or leap which he cannot justify... although it will require the mentioned 'cleaning up' in order to have the issue present itself. Granted, the Bible itself does not flesh out the characteristics of God until much later in the narrative, but I consider this a result of an assumption of sovereignty, i.e., all that flows from the source is speaking about the source, either in agreement or disagreement, rather than a development of God.
Thus, point two errs in this regard: since God is the absolute standard by which all value is determined, what ought have happened at the point in time when a lie was told about Him? Absolute perfection demands absolute righteousness, therefore, the lie ought to have been expunged... along with the liar. Something (which absolute perfection does not necessarily comment upon) stayed obliteration--- for whatever reason. That same something (still unnamed) allows for any and all suffering to occur, but we can at least point to the lie as being the cause, not the unnamed force.
A General Argument from Evil:
God (def.): An entity that is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
Omnipotent (def.): An entity G is omnipotent if and only if G can do anything that is logically possible.
Omniscient (def.): An entity G is omniscient if and only if G knows every true proposition.
Morally Perfect (def): An entity G is morally perfect if and only if for any two acts, events, or states of affairs A and B, if A is morally preferable to B then G prefers that A occur or obtain rather than B, and G acts accordingly.
NOTE: The notion ‘morally preferable’ presumes no particular ethical theory. The argument that follows is neutral as to correctness of any particular ethical theory, and as such is applicable regardless of which ethical theory is correct. In my arguments below, however, I will assume that moral terms mean what they're typically taken to mean. I will use terms like 'badness', 'callousness', etc. in the normal way.
1) God exists.
2) There has occurred at least one event E such that E brought about unnecessary suffering; suffering not logically necessary for the bringing about of greater good.
3) If God is omnipotent, God could have prevented E from occurring.
4) If God is omniscient, God would have known that E was going to occur.
5) If God is morally perfect God would have preferred that E not occur, and acted accordingly.
6) If (3), (4), and (5), then E could not have occurred.
7) Hence, E did not occur.
8) But, by (2), E did occur.
9) Hence, either one or more premises (1) through (5) are false.
10) Premises (2) through (5) are true.
11) Hence, premise (1) is false; God does not exist.
This is a valid reductio, so the theist must reject either theism itself, or at least one of the following premises: (2), (3), (4), or (5).
It is my contention that the fatal flaw begins in point one, which then leads to other errors. Prior to commencing on anything which follows, the God that exists must be either defined or allowed to be the standard of definition for all that follows. Instead, we don't find out until points 3-5 of alleged properties of the being from point one.
Once that issue is resolved, I also believe it will be shown that bbarr errs on point two, with an assumption or leap which he cannot justify... although it will require the mentioned 'cleaning up' in order to have the issue present itself. Granted, the Bible itself does not flesh out the characteristics of God until much later in the narrative, but I consider this a result of an assumption of sovereignty, i.e., all that flows from the source is speaking about the source, either in agreement or disagreement, rather than a development of God.
Thus, point two errs in this regard: since God is the absolute standard by which all value is determined, what ought have happened at the point in time when a lie was told about Him? Absolute perfection demands absolute righteousness, therefore, the lie ought to have been expunged... along with the liar. Something (which absolute perfection does not necessarily comment upon) stayed obliteration--- for whatever reason. That same something (still unnamed) allows for any and all suffering to occur, but we can at least point to the lie as being the cause, not the unnamed force.