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Originally posted by wibI ask this with complete respect but have you ever lost anybody close to due to suicide? I hope you haven't but, at least for me and perhaps a great deal of my feelings have to do with the age I was at when it happened, I think I wasn't important enough for this person to want to live. None of the people in this person's life mattered. The people that loved this person, and this person was loved. Yes this person was also very troubled and had issues and these issues should have been addressed. You labeled them a "victim" but what were they a victim of? Their own demise by their own hand?
I'm still not seeing it Hal. I just don't see how the selfishness label could be put on a suicide victim. They take their own life. They obviously have issues in life that have led them to this decision.
Hopelessness, despair, unending pain, terminal illness, mental illness, financial ruin, lost love, and on and on. I can't even guess at all of the re ...[text shortened]... self beyond the care of another human being as selfish. Are there other reasons for this label?
I am making an assumption that many of us have had difficult challenging situations in our lives. Some of these people who have had your circumstances or better ones or worse ones had decided "Life was too rough for me. Screw it! I'm checking out". Others decide to make the most out of it and make it better not just for themselves but for those around them.
Originally posted by Joe FistI can't agree... Someone who actually considers and finally decides to kill themselves is not in the right mind to be labeled 'selfish'. They had a real problem they were not able to get over, sometimes as much as we try to help them get over it.
I ask this with complete respect but have you ever lost anybody close to due to suicide? I hope you haven't but, at least for me and perhaps a great deal of my feelings have to do with the age I was at when it happened, I think I wasn't important enough for this person to want to live. None of the people in this person's life mattered. The people that ...[text shortened]... to make the most out of it and make it better not just for themselves but for those around them.
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Originally posted by Joe FistA very good post. I appreciate your explanation of your feelings on the matter.
I ask this with complete respect but have you ever lost anybody close to due to suicide? I hope you haven't but, at least for me and perhaps a great deal of my feelings have to do with the age I was at when it happened, I think I wasn't important enough for this person to want to live. None of the people in this person's life mattered. The people that ...[text shortened]... to make the most out of it and make it better not just for themselves but for those around them.
My only experience with suicide was when my father attempted it. Thankfully it was a rather poor attempt. He tried hanging himself in a jail cell at the height of one of his alcoholic stupors. Anyway, didn't work.
When I discussed it with him, after he spent quite a bit of time in the hospital and rehab, I never picked up anything selfish. All I ever got from him was despair, hopelessness, disgust at the fact that he couldn't quit drinking and his life was in shambles. That's why I have questions about the "selfish" aspect of suicide. I never saw any sign of that. What I saw was a person that wanted to end it because they couldn't see any other way out.
I'm not sure that's selfish. But again, I appreciate your explanation of your point of view. It did give me another way of looking at the issue.
My father recovered by the way. With a lot of help. Most of it coming from AA.
Originally posted by wibI have said this in another post but my mother successfully committed suicide when I was 10 years old by an overdose of sleeping pills. I didn't mean to imply that the person committing the act was knowlingly aware of its selfish nature as I imagine however out of their right mind they are at that moment, selfishness is perhaps not even a thought in their head and probably all of the emotions your father felt were present.
A very good post. I appreciate your explanation of your feelings on the matter.
My only experience with suicide was when my father attempted it. Thankfully it was a rather poor attempt. He tried hanging himself in a jail cell at the height of one of his alcoholic stupors. Anyway, didn't work.
When I discussed it with him, after he spent quite a bi ...[text shortened]... the issue.
My father recovered by the way. With a lot of help. Most of it coming from AA.
I'm very glad your father was unsuccessful but as horrific as this may sound, imagine for a second if he did succeed? I have some bitterness towards my mother for the reasons I expressed and that is, for me, where the label of "selfishness" comes in.
Originally posted by Joe FistI understand completely. Believe me. Plus it's not my business to judge your feelings on an issue that complex anyway. I've never walked in your shoes bro. 🙂
I have said this in another post but my mother successfully committed suicide when I was 10 years old by an overdose of sleeping pills. I didn't mean to imply that the person committing the act was knowlingly aware of its selfish nature as I imagine however out of their right mind they are at that moment, selfishness is perhaps not even a thought in their ...[text shortened]... er for the reasons I expressed and that is, for me, where the label of "selfishness" comes in.
As I said, I can at least now see where someone, the person left behind to ponder and deal with the emotional turmoil, could see the selfishness of suicide. Especially losing a parent at an age the way you did.
Until this thread I would have never put suicide and selfish in the same sentence. But I can see where some people are coming from with their definition of selfish.
Originally posted by Joe FistThat's sad Joe....so sad.Suicidal people live on a different planet.K.Often it isn't about they don't care,but they are unable to care.So sad cause she proberbly loved you so much.
I have said this in another post but my mother successfully committed suicide when I was 10 years old by an overdose of sleeping pills. I didn't mean to imply that the person committing the act was knowlingly aware of its selfish nature as I imagine however out of their right mind they are at that moment, selfishness is perhaps not even a thought in their ...[text shortened]... er for the reasons I expressed and that is, for me, where the label of "selfishness" comes in.
Originally posted by wibNo worries bro and in no such way did I take it as you were judging my feelings. I do understand how you feel. It's interesting to hear all the perspectives on this issue.
I understand completely. Believe me. Plus it's not my business to judge your feelings on an issue that complex anyway. I've never walked in your shoes bro. 🙂
As I said, I can at least now see where someone, the person left behind to ponder and deal with the emotional turmoil, could see the selfishness of suicide. Especially losing a parent at an age t ...[text shortened]... ame sentence. But I can see where some people are coming from with their definition of selfish.
Originally posted by windmillYeah that is really the way I try to process it but it did happen almost 27 years ago and I think I am fine with it. I just look at my own kid and I can't even contemplate not being there for her, no matter how hard it may seem at times, you know?
That's sad Joe....so sad.Suicidal people live on a different planet.K.Often it isn't about they don't care,but they are unable to care.So sad cause she proberbly loved you so much.
Thanks for your thoughtful perspective though 🙂
my best friend committed suicide by cop in denver in 1990
he went off his meds and kidnapped 2 women and went to their credit union.the denver swat team surrounded him.my friend had a 44 at his chest ,his thumb on the trigger.a police man shot him with a "rubber bullet",my buddy pulled the trigger .he was doa at the hospital.his name was carl,he was a uscf close to expert strenghth, most of the time he was around 2000.he was also my bass player.:'(
just a few random thoughts on the subject
all the posts in this thread so far seem to be based on the assumption that the taking of one's own life is an act committed by rationally thinking people. Most people that commit or even seriously consider such an act are in a mental state that most of us wouldn't wish on our most hated foe.
I had to watch my best friend deal with a close family member who shot himself in the head dieing instantly. The man's depression had just overwhelmed him to the point where he couldn't take it anymore. He lived in a brand new 1/2 million dollar house that he paid cash for before moving into. His wife made twice what he did. His reason for depression: for the first time in his life he was without a job and he owed $3,000 dollars on a 8 year truck, and he didn't know how he would pay off the debt without a job. Not rational thinking.
When a person reaches a point of killing themselves, I think their mind has been eaten away by a disease no less fatal then cancer. It's mainly for this reason that I think God alone can understand the horror and pain involved. I also believe that he has a special place of comfort set aside in heaven for those that have been tormented by a disease of the mind.
Originally posted by bdh191Actually I think my own experience as well as the other ones I have read here have not in any way given the impression the act of committing or attempting to commit suicide was done by a "rational thinking person". I think it is quite obvious that nobody would think that way.
just a few random thoughts on the subject
all the posts in this thread so far seem to be based on the assumption that the taking of one's own life is an act committed by rationally thinking people. Most people that commit or even seriously consider such an act are in a mental state that most of us wouldn't wish on our most hated foe.
I had to watch ...[text shortened]... lace of comfort set aside in heaven for those that have been tormented by a disease of the mind.
I am sorry about what your best friend had to go through. I agree with you that when a person reaches a state where it seems suicide is the only solution perhaps their mind is "eaten" away. That is a lovely thought you have about God having a special place for these people but I am not 100% convinced of it.