Suppose...

Originally posted by Darfius
What do you mean by 'wills' it? Wants it to happen, or allows it to happen? Rape, for instance, is not something He 'wants' to happen, but it is something He 'allows' to happen, because He views suppressing our free will as a more evil alternative.

Then he willed that the event occur. It's really very simple. If he did not will that the event occur, then it would not occur. You can make up reasons why he might will that an event occur, but that is tangential to the point at hand.

Originally posted by telerion
Then he willed that the event occur. It's really very simple. If he did not will that the event occur, then it would not occur. You can make up reasons why he might will that an event occur, but that is tangential to the point at hand.

Right. So when parents take their kids to the doctor to get shots, they 'want' their children to be screaming in pain and terror. Forget about any extenuating circumstances.

Originally posted by Darfius
Right. So when parents take their kids to the doctor to get shots, they 'want' their children to be screaming in pain and terror. Forget about any extenuating circumstances.

Here, inoculation against disease is the side benefit, so the parents are not being cruel.

When God let's a rapist exercise free will to physically hurt and humiliate a victim, the supposed side benefit is the exercise of that free will. Is this sufficient to exonerate God from the charge of being cruel?

Originally posted by Darfius
Right. So when parents take their kids to the doctor to get shots, they 'want' their children to be screaming in pain and terror. Forget about any extenuating circumstances.

Human parents are not omnipotent. Sometimes they have to do things which have undesired side effects for the greater good because they are limited beings.

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
Here, inoculation against disease is the side benefit, so the parents are not being cruel.

When God let's a rapist exercise free will to physically hurt and humiliate a victim, the supposed side benefit is the exercise of that free will. Is this sufficient to exonerate God from the charge of being cruel?

Yes, espcially in light of the fact that the rapist will suffer consequences.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Human parents are not omnipotent. Sometimes they have to do things which have undesired side effects for the greater good because they are limited beings.

Sometimes God has to allow things which have undesired side effects for the greater good.

Originally posted by Darfius
Yes, espcially in light of the fact that the rapist will suffer consequences.

So, the person raped suffers the pain of rape; and the rapist suffers the pain of punishment. And this ensures that God is not cruel?

Originally posted by Darfius
Sometimes God has to allow things which have undesired side effects for the greater good.

How do you know this? Do you just make it up as you go along? What basis do you have for making this claim? Why does an omnipotent being 'have' to do anything?

Originally posted by rwingett
How do you know this? Do you just make it up as you go along? What basis do you have for making this claim? Why does an omnipotent being 'have' to do anything?

I know because He has told me in His revelation to mankind.

He 'has' to do things because of His plan/nature.

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
So, the person raped suffers the pain of rape; and the rapist suffers the pain of punishment. And this ensures that God is not cruel?

It ensures that He is not evil, which means He is not cruel, yes.

Originally posted by Darfius
I know because He has told me in His revelation to mankind.

He 'has' to do things because of His plan/nature.

His 'revalation to mankind?' Do you have a firsthand account of this 'revalation?' Or is your knowledge of it confined to questionable secondhand and tertiary accounts of it?

The question is whether god could have constructed a different plan if he so chose. Or was he incapable of doing so?

Originally posted by rwingett
His 'revalation to mankind?' Do you have a firsthand account of this 'revalation?' Or is your knowledge of it confined to questionable secondhand and tertiary accounts of it?

The question is whether god could have constructed a different plan if he so chose. Or was he incapable of doing so?

I can read His revelation for myself (the Bible). I know it is His revelation because of the trustworthiness of the eyewitnesses (admissable in court), prophecy, and the testimony of archaeology.

The 'question' (since we were discussing why God ALLOWS rape), is whether God can veer from His plan, which, given its assured perfection, He cannot.

Originally posted by rwingett
His 'revalation to mankind?' Do you have a firsthand account of this 'revalation?' Or is your knowledge of it confined to questionable secondhand and tertiary accounts of it?

The question is whether god could have constructed a different plan if he so chose. Or was he incapable of doing so?

When I read the Bible I see a flow of history in a certain direction. We may complain why are we not at the destination already. And why were we not always at this destination?

These are good questions philosophially. Yet we are at least assured that God's eternal purpose is propelling the universe in that direction. That is a new heaven and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

We are told that God has the unique ability to cause all things to work together for good to those who are called according to His purpose. The light momentary affliction is preparing for the believers and eternal weight of glory.

At least the Bible shows the universe moving by God's governing hand in that direction of universal justice, love, peace, and eternal life. When I hear this term "the will of God" I envision what man only desires in an ultimate sense.

For a season, perhaps a long season to our realization, the problem is that there is more than one will in the universe. But we are moving in the direction of one prevailing will of God. And there all tears are wiped away and death shall be no more, neither crying or pain or sin.

My desire is to move with the move of this one divine will and to be brought to that destination for which we all long.

Originally posted by Darfius
It ensures that He is not evil, which means He is not cruel, yes.

I just find myself wishing your God were *nicer*. If he were, I might be inclined to consider it worthwhile to believe in Him, even if the evidence were shaky.

Originally posted by Darfius
I can read His revelation for myself (the Bible). I know it is His revelation because of the trustworthiness of the eyewitnesses (admissable in court), prophecy, and the testimony of archaeology.

The 'question' (since we were discussing why God ALLOWS rape), is whether God can veer from His plan, which, given its assured perfection, He cannot.

How do you know that all the Bible is divinely inspired as a unit?