Spirituality
18 Aug 06
18 Aug 06
...that some of the apparently senseless evil in the world in fact does makes sense, only in some way our finite minds fail to grasp, but which God nonetheless grasps, because it occurs in accordance with His divine plan.
Could it be possible, then, that by engaging in acts of senseless evil, we could be assisting God in the execution of His plan? Could Ted Bundy be the handmaiden of the Lord?
18 Aug 06
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeThe answer to your question is built into your assumption:
...that some of the apparently senseless evil in the world in fact does makes sense, only in some way our finite minds fail to grasp, but which God nonetheless grasps, because it occurs in accordance with His divine plan.
Could it be possible, then, that by engaging in acts of senseless evil, we could be assisting God in the execution of His plan? Could Ted Bundy be the handmaiden of the Lord?
Suppose: Some of the apparently senseless evil...makes sense.
Given: Ted Bundy committed apparent senseless evils.
Thus: Ted Bundy's actions make sense.
You've framed the question in such a way that there is only one logical
way of answering it with the monumental assumption that you are
positing.
Nemesio
18 Aug 06
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeWith things that are inherently unexplainable (or incoherant), you could suppose any number of things. And your supposition would have just as much going for it as any other.
...that some of the apparently senseless evil in the world in fact does makes sense, only in some way our finite minds fail to grasp, but which God nonetheless grasps, because it occurs in accordance with His divine plan.
Could it be possible, then, that by engaging in acts of senseless evil, we could be assisting God in the execution of His plan? Could Ted Bundy be the handmaiden of the Lord?
18 Aug 06
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeI would argue that looking for the "divine plan" in terms of logical suppositions goes against the spirit of the biblical stories of mankind coming to terms with pain through a relationship with God. That process is not easy. I may not have expressed myself very well, but I wanted to basically say that sometimes life is crap and finding God is difficult.
...that some of the apparently senseless evil in the world in fact does makes sense, only in some way our finite minds fail to grasp, but which God nonetheless grasps, because it occurs in accordance with His divine plan.
Could it be possible, then, that by engaging in acts of senseless evil, we could be assisting God in the execution of His plan? Could Ted Bundy be the handmaiden of the Lord?
18 Aug 06
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeSounds like "pre-destination". Don't most Christians argue that we were given free will? Evils like Bundy are the work of the devil, in opposition to their god. Unless you are thinking about Judas being pre-ordained to betray Jesus?
...that some of the apparently senseless evil in the world in fact does makes sense, only in some way our finite minds fail to grasp, but which God nonetheless grasps, because it occurs in accordance with His divine plan.
Could it be possible, then, that by engaging in acts of senseless evil, we could be assisting God in the execution of His plan? Could Ted Bundy be the handmaiden of the Lord?
18 Aug 06
Originally posted by NemesioThat doesn't logically go through, as there might be some *other* evils that did not make sense that Ted Bundy committed.
The answer to your question is built into your assumption:
Suppose: Some of the apparently senseless evil...makes sense.
Given: Ted Bundy committed apparent senseless evils.
Thus: Ted Bundy's actions make sense.
You've framed the question in such a way that there is only one logical
way of answering it with the monumental assumption that you are
positing.
Nemesio
18 Aug 06
Originally posted by kirksey957Would you say that it is crap because God wills it to be thus, or not?
I would argue that looking for the "divine plan" in terms of logical suppositions goes against the spirit of the biblical stories of mankind coming to terms with pain through a relationship with God. That process is not easy. I may not have expressed myself very well, but I wanted to basically say that sometimes life is crap and finding God is difficult.
18 Aug 06
Originally posted by rwingettI agree. But suppose you did suppose this. It raises a very scary prospect doesn't it? That I could do something as apparently senseless as Ted Bundy, and still be carrying God's plan. I see this as an argument against the possibility of a theodicy.
With things that are inherently unexplainable (or incoherant), you could suppose any number of things. And your supposition would have just as much going for it as any other.
18 Aug 06
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeI would say that it is what it is and not because God wills it. I also think that the world can be a wonderful place at times too. Our theological perspective often comes about in hindsight. Maybe you could say something about that.
Would you say that it is crap because God wills it to be thus, or not?
19 Aug 06
Originally posted by kirksey957But how can something bad happen unless God wills it, unless God is impotent to prevent it?
I would say that it is what it is and not because God wills it. I also think that the world can be a wonderful place at times too. Our theological perspective often comes about in hindsight. Maybe you could say something about that.
20 Aug 06
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeWhat do you mean by 'wills' it? Wants it to happen, or allows it to happen? Rape, for instance, is not something He 'wants' to happen, but it is something He 'allows' to happen, because He views suppressing our free will as a more evil alternative.
But how can something bad happen unless God wills it, unless God is impotent to prevent it?
20 Aug 06
Originally posted by DarfiusI mean "wills" broadly, as in "in harmony with God's will", or "with God's approval". The usage is defensible, given God's supposed omnipotence--creating and sustaining the universe, and all that. Nonetheless, I do accept the verb has a more specific interpretation; I hope this clarification suffices.
What do you mean by 'wills' it? Wants it to happen, or allows it to happen? Rape, for instance, is not something He 'wants' to happen, but it is something He 'allows' to happen, because He views suppressing our free will as a more evil alternative.
Are you sure that the pain of any particular rape would be be justified by affording the rapist the possibility of engaging in an evil act? Does it depend on how brutal the rape is, or not?
20 Aug 06
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeI did not say that the possibility of choosing the evil act justified the evil act. What will 'justify' the evil act is the punishment that will result, either in this life or the next, as that is when 'justice' enters the picture. What I said was that God viewed allowing the rape as a 'lesser' evil than suppressing our free will.
I mean "wills" broadly, as in "in harmony with God's will", or "with God's approval". The usage is defensible, given God's supposed omnipotence--creating and sustaining the universe, and all that. Nonetheless, I do accept the verb has a more specific interpretation; I hope this clarification suffices.
Are you sure that the pain of any particular rape ...[text shortened]... ssibility of engaging in an evil act? Does it depend on how brutal the rape is, or not?
Certainly He cannot pick and choose which times to suppress our free will, as that would be an implicit statement that 'some' evil is ok while other evil isn't. He views all evil as wrong, and thus the time will come when those who have done so will reap what they sow. And those who weep will be comforted.