1. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    18 Aug '06 17:35
    ...that some of the apparently senseless evil in the world in fact does makes sense, only in some way our finite minds fail to grasp, but which God nonetheless grasps, because it occurs in accordance with His divine plan.

    Could it be possible, then, that by engaging in acts of senseless evil, we could be assisting God in the execution of His plan? Could Ted Bundy be the handmaiden of the Lord?
  2. Standard memberNemesio
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    18 Aug '06 17:49
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    ...that some of the apparently senseless evil in the world in fact does makes sense, only in some way our finite minds fail to grasp, but which God nonetheless grasps, because it occurs in accordance with His divine plan.

    Could it be possible, then, that by engaging in acts of senseless evil, we could be assisting God in the execution of His plan? Could Ted Bundy be the handmaiden of the Lord?
    The answer to your question is built into your assumption:

    Suppose: Some of the apparently senseless evil...makes sense.
    Given: Ted Bundy committed apparent senseless evils.
    Thus: Ted Bundy's actions make sense.

    You've framed the question in such a way that there is only one logical
    way of answering it with the monumental assumption that you are
    positing.

    Nemesio
  3. Donationrwingett
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    18 Aug '06 18:34
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    ...that some of the apparently senseless evil in the world in fact does makes sense, only in some way our finite minds fail to grasp, but which God nonetheless grasps, because it occurs in accordance with His divine plan.

    Could it be possible, then, that by engaging in acts of senseless evil, we could be assisting God in the execution of His plan? Could Ted Bundy be the handmaiden of the Lord?
    With things that are inherently unexplainable (or incoherant), you could suppose any number of things. And your supposition would have just as much going for it as any other.
  4. Donationkirksey957
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    18 Aug '06 18:45
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    ...that some of the apparently senseless evil in the world in fact does makes sense, only in some way our finite minds fail to grasp, but which God nonetheless grasps, because it occurs in accordance with His divine plan.

    Could it be possible, then, that by engaging in acts of senseless evil, we could be assisting God in the execution of His plan? Could Ted Bundy be the handmaiden of the Lord?
    I would argue that looking for the "divine plan" in terms of logical suppositions goes against the spirit of the biblical stories of mankind coming to terms with pain through a relationship with God. That process is not easy. I may not have expressed myself very well, but I wanted to basically say that sometimes life is crap and finding God is difficult.
  5. Standard memberDavid C
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    18 Aug '06 20:12
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    ...that some of the apparently senseless evil in the world in fact does makes sense, only in some way our finite minds fail to grasp, but which God nonetheless grasps, because it occurs in accordance with His divine plan.

    Could it be possible, then, that by engaging in acts of senseless evil, we could be assisting God in the execution of His plan? Could Ted Bundy be the handmaiden of the Lord?
    Sounds like "pre-destination". Don't most Christians argue that we were given free will? Evils like Bundy are the work of the devil, in opposition to their god. Unless you are thinking about Judas being pre-ordained to betray Jesus?
  6. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    18 Aug '06 20:59
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    The answer to your question is built into your assumption:

    Suppose: Some of the apparently senseless evil...makes sense.
    Given: Ted Bundy committed apparent senseless evils.
    Thus: Ted Bundy's actions make sense.

    You've framed the question in such a way that there is only one logical
    way of answering it with the monumental assumption that you are
    positing.

    Nemesio
    That doesn't logically go through, as there might be some *other* evils that did not make sense that Ted Bundy committed.
  7. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    18 Aug '06 21:00
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    I would argue that looking for the "divine plan" in terms of logical suppositions goes against the spirit of the biblical stories of mankind coming to terms with pain through a relationship with God. That process is not easy. I may not have expressed myself very well, but I wanted to basically say that sometimes life is crap and finding God is difficult.
    Would you say that it is crap because God wills it to be thus, or not?
  8. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    18 Aug '06 21:02
    Originally posted by rwingett
    With things that are inherently unexplainable (or incoherant), you could suppose any number of things. And your supposition would have just as much going for it as any other.
    I agree. But suppose you did suppose this. It raises a very scary prospect doesn't it? That I could do something as apparently senseless as Ted Bundy, and still be carrying God's plan. I see this as an argument against the possibility of a theodicy.
  9. Donationkirksey957
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    18 Aug '06 21:05
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    Would you say that it is crap because God wills it to be thus, or not?
    I would say that it is what it is and not because God wills it. I also think that the world can be a wonderful place at times too. Our theological perspective often comes about in hindsight. Maybe you could say something about that.
  10. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    19 Aug '06 22:22
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    I would say that it is what it is and not because God wills it. I also think that the world can be a wonderful place at times too. Our theological perspective often comes about in hindsight. Maybe you could say something about that.
    But how can something bad happen unless God wills it, unless God is impotent to prevent it?
  11. Donationkirksey957
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    19 Aug '06 22:25
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    But how can something bad happen unless God wills it, unless God is impotent to prevent it?
    Who said God was omni and all that?
  12. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    19 Aug '06 22:28
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Who said God was omni and all that?
    I dunno. People supposely in the know?
  13. Standard memberDarfius
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    20 Aug '06 07:40
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    But how can something bad happen unless God wills it, unless God is impotent to prevent it?
    What do you mean by 'wills' it? Wants it to happen, or allows it to happen? Rape, for instance, is not something He 'wants' to happen, but it is something He 'allows' to happen, because He views suppressing our free will as a more evil alternative.
  14. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    20 Aug '06 09:34
    Originally posted by Darfius
    What do you mean by 'wills' it? Wants it to happen, or allows it to happen? Rape, for instance, is not something He 'wants' to happen, but it is something He 'allows' to happen, because He views suppressing our free will as a more evil alternative.
    I mean "wills" broadly, as in "in harmony with God's will", or "with God's approval". The usage is defensible, given God's supposed omnipotence--creating and sustaining the universe, and all that. Nonetheless, I do accept the verb has a more specific interpretation; I hope this clarification suffices.

    Are you sure that the pain of any particular rape would be be justified by affording the rapist the possibility of engaging in an evil act? Does it depend on how brutal the rape is, or not?
  15. Standard memberDarfius
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    20 Aug '06 18:04
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    I mean "wills" broadly, as in "in harmony with God's will", or "with God's approval". The usage is defensible, given God's supposed omnipotence--creating and sustaining the universe, and all that. Nonetheless, I do accept the verb has a more specific interpretation; I hope this clarification suffices.

    Are you sure that the pain of any particular rape ...[text shortened]... ssibility of engaging in an evil act? Does it depend on how brutal the rape is, or not?
    I did not say that the possibility of choosing the evil act justified the evil act. What will 'justify' the evil act is the punishment that will result, either in this life or the next, as that is when 'justice' enters the picture. What I said was that God viewed allowing the rape as a 'lesser' evil than suppressing our free will.

    Certainly He cannot pick and choose which times to suppress our free will, as that would be an implicit statement that 'some' evil is ok while other evil isn't. He views all evil as wrong, and thus the time will come when those who have done so will reap what they sow. And those who weep will be comforted.
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