1. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    24 Jan '08 11:46
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    If the veracity of a religion is based upon how large its tent is, then I'm sure there are far more truthful religions than Islam. Baha'i, for example. I'm sure there are folks who really do judge a religion based on these merits, too.
    I wonder when 'religion' and 'truth' started getting confused. Philosophy dispensed with religion pretty quickly...Religion is closer to art than philosophy.
  2. Standard memberno1marauder
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    24 Jan '08 14:12
    Originally posted by rwingett
    The point, of course, is that your religion is stupid.

    That wasn't actually my point. My point is that Islam seems to have much looser restrictions as to who gets into heaven. A Jew or a Muslim could never make it into a 'christian' heaven. But the Muslims, being the nice guys that they are, just invite every old monotheist into theirs. So by that criteria, their religion is less stupid than your's.
    The "no works" theology is held by relatively small numbers of Christians; most (but not all) Protestants - (perhaps 20-25% of Christians). RCC and Eastern Orthodox doctrine reject this Lutheran innovation which was an overreaction to the scandals regarding the sale of indulgences in the Middle Ages.

    Whether a Jew or Muslim could make it into a Christian heaven as conceived by the majority of Christians is doctrinally unclear, but the RCC doesn't say its impossible.
  3. Standard memberno1marauder
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    24 Jan '08 14:14
    Originally posted by josephw
    But notice that in the Qu'ran one is required to live a righteous life and to do good "works" in order to get to heaven.

    The Bible tells us we can do nothing to gain admittance into heaven.
    Jesus did the work. We simply believe and trust in what Christ did on our behalf, and eternal life is given to us as a free gift of God's grace.
    The Bible, at least the words of Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels, tell you no such thing. He constantly stresses the importance of good works and NEVER says simple belief is sufficient (quite the contrary esp. in Matthew 25).
  4. Subscriberjosephw
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    24 Jan '08 23:00
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    So you're lazy too, huh?

    Does any of what you said have any bearing whatsoever towards which one is right and which one is wrong?
    Ask yourself if you think you could do anything in your own power, considering your present state, that would please a Holy God enough for Him to allow you into His presence.

    You should at least try to see the issue from the Biblical perspective. That way you could be objective in your deliberation concerning the topic.
  5. Subscriberjosephw
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    24 Jan '08 23:24
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    The Bible, at least the words of Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels, tell you no such thing. He constantly stresses the importance of good works and NEVER says simple belief is sufficient (quite the contrary esp. in Matthew 25).
    That's right no1. But you fail to understand why.
    I would love to explain why, but I'm not sure you are really interested.

    I'll explain it anyway.

    You see, Jesus came to fulfill the law, that is, to fill the law full. He couldn't have told Israel to forget the law could He? No. That would have been blasphemy. We know that the law can't save, so, after the "cross work" God is now able to "impute" His righteousness to us apart from the law. It's called "grace". Unmerited favor. You can't earn grace.

    Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

    Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
  6. Standard memberno1marauder
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    24 Jan '08 23:301 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    That's right no1. But you fail to understand why.
    I would love to explain why, but I'm not sure you are really interested.

    I'll explain it anyway.

    You see, Jesus came to fulfill the law, that is, to fill the law full. He couldn't have told Israel to forget the law could He? No. That would have been blasphemy. We know that the law can't save, so, aft :4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
    So everything Jesus said was unimportant; only his death matters at all? A sick death cult with a theology invented in the Middle Ages and rejected by the vast majority of Christians.

    The good works constantly stressed by Jesus had nothing to do with "the Law", so your entire belief system is based on a fallacy.
  7. Subscriberjosephw
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    24 Jan '08 23:59
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    So everything Jesus said was unimportant; only his death matters at all? A sick death cult with a theology invented in the Middle Ages and rejected by the vast majority of Christians.

    The good works constantly stressed by Jesus had nothing to do with "the Law", so your entire belief system is based on a fallacy.
    When this present dispensation of grace is over God will again resume the prophetic program with Israel.

    Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

    Eph 3:3-5 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
    Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
  8. Standard memberno1marauder
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    25 Jan '08 00:08
    Originally posted by josephw
    When this present dispensation of grace is over God will again resume the prophetic program with Israel.

    Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of t ...[text shortened]... ches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
    Do you ever quote Christ? You should change the name of YOUR religion to "Paulians" (not that you haven't twisted his message as well).

    And please stop merely quoting Biblical verses anyway; if you have some argument present it.
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    25 Jan '08 12:16
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Do you ever quote Christ? You should change the name of YOUR religion to "Paulians" (not that you haven't twisted his message as well).

    And please stop merely quoting Biblical verses anyway; if you have some argument present it.
    Why should I stop quoting the Bible. It is the authority.
    You should try reading it.

    As far as quoting Christ- The apostle Paul received the message he preached from the glorified Lord Jesus Christ.

    Your ignorance is appalling!
  10. Standard memberno1marauder
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    25 Jan '08 20:45
    Originally posted by josephw
    Why should I stop quoting the Bible. It is the authority.
    You should try reading it.

    As far as quoting Christ- The apostle Paul received the message he preached from the glorified Lord Jesus Christ.

    Your ignorance is appalling!
    The Apostle Paul never met Jesus Christ; it's strange that the "glorified Lord Jesus Christ" would totally ignore what the non-dead Jesus Christ preached.

    I've read the Bible and can quote parts besides what Paul wrote even if you can't. Moreover, my understanding of the "book" isn't polluted by a warped theology invented 1500 years after Christ died.
  11. Subscriberjosephw
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    26 Jan '08 00:171 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    The Apostle Paul never met Jesus Christ; it's strange that the "glorified Lord Jesus Christ" would totally ignore what the non-dead Jesus Christ preached.

    I've read the Bible and can quote parts besides what Paul wrote even if you can't. Moreover, my understanding of the "book" isn't polluted by a warped theology invented 1500 years after Christ died.
    Ac 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
    Ac 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

    Paul never met Jesus? Again, your ignorance is appalling.

    Your theology is "polluted by a warped theology invented 1500 years after Christ died". That's not exactly true. What you believe has been around for nearly 2000 years. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

    So you think that by keeping the law you can be righteous?
    Just what is your "theology"? Can you give a description?
  12. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    26 Jan '08 00:50
    Originally posted by josephw
    Ac 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
    Ac 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

    Paul never met Jesus? Again, your ignorance is appalling.

    Your theology is "polluted by a warped theology invented 1500 years after Christ died". That' ...[text shortened]... g the law you can be righteous?
    Just what is your "theology"? Can you give a description?
    "Unlike the Twelve Apostles, there is no indication that Paul ever met Jesus prior to the latter's crucifixion.[4] According to Acts, his conversion took place as he was traveling the road to Damascus, and experienced a vision of the resurrected Jesus[5]."

    From wiki article on Saul of Tarsus. That'd be a "no" he never met Jesus.
  13. Subscriberjosephw
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    26 Jan '08 01:10
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    "Unlike the Twelve Apostles, there is no indication that Paul ever met Jesus prior to the latter's crucifixion.[4] According to Acts, his conversion took place as he was traveling the road to Damascus, and experienced a vision of the resurrected Jesus[5]."

    From wiki article on Saul of Tarsus. That'd be a "no" he never met Jesus.
    Everybody knows that Paul never met Jesus prior to his Demascas experience. That's just too obvious.

    Is not Jesus Jesus? What's with you guys?
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    26 Jan '08 03:28
    Originally posted by josephw
    Everybody knows that Paul never met Jesus prior to his Demascas experience. That's just too obvious.

    Is not Jesus Jesus? What's with you guys?
    There's a big difference between Jesus the walking, breathing man, and Jesus the spirit, avatar of God...
  15. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    26 Jan '08 04:01
    Originally posted by josephw
    Everybody knows that Paul never met Jesus prior to his Demascas experience. That's just too obvious.

    Is not Jesus Jesus? What's with you guys?
    If I dream of you, does that mean I met you?
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