1. Standard membersh76
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    06 Aug '12 16:321 edit
    As far as I can tell, the Bible (or at least the OT - I'm not quite up on my knowledge of the NT for reasons that are apparent from my profile) does not say anything about God knowing all of our deeds and details of our lives. God is referred to as the creator, a "man of war" and whole bunch of other gnarly things, but I don't see anything about God being able to see all of your good deeds and bad deeds and use that to render a verdict of eternity in Heaven or eternity in Hell or something in between.

    Quite the contrary, a look at the Bible seems to clearly indicate that God left it to man to enforce his laws, as evidence by the veritable myriad of death penalties and lashing penalties and excommunications penalties prescribed by the OT. In fact, as far as I can recall, the OT says nothing at all about posthumous reward and punishment.

    So, my question is: When did the focus of the Big 3 religions' take on reward and punishment move to the posthumous category. Did some bigwig one day wake up and say "Gee, we'll never be able to enforce those rules. Quick! Let's say that enforcement comes posthumously so that nobody can ever claim our rules are unenforceable"? Does anyone know of any archaeological evidence on this question?
  2. Standard memberRajk999
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    06 Aug '12 16:58
    Originally posted by sh76
    .... I don't see anything about God being able to see all of your good deeds and bad deeds and use that to render a verdict of eternity in Heaven or eternity in Hell or something in between...
    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
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    06 Aug '12 16:59
    Originally posted by sh76
    As far as I can tell, the Bible (or at least the OT - I'm not quite up on my knowledge of the NT for reasons that are apparent from my profile) does not say anything about God knowing all of our deeds and details of our lives. God is referred to as the creator, a "man of war" and whole bunch of other gnarly things, but I don't see anything about God being able ...[text shortened]... s are unenforceable"? Does anyone know of any archaeological evidence on this question?
    Here is a partial response to your question, WRT the life after death aspect. This Christian response relies on the NT and OT. It does not provide an explicit yes or no, but draws its conclusions based in implications of various Bible verses that it cites or quotes.

    http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2008/08-20a.html

    Example:

    quote:

    But beyond all of that, Job knew about life after death.

    "For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth; and after my skin is destroyed, this I know, that in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!" (Job 19:25-27).

    unquote.

    This ambiguously suggests life after death, if not eternal life after death.
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    06 Aug '12 17:171 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    As far as I can tell, the Bible (or at least the OT - I'm not quite up on my knowledge of the NT for reasons that are apparent from my profile) does not say anything about God knowing all of our deeds and details of our lives. God is referred to as the creator, a "man of war" and whole bunch of other gnarly things, but I don't see anything about God being able s are unenforceable"? Does anyone know of any archaeological evidence on this question?
    As far as I can tell, the Bible (or at least the OT - I'm not quite up on my knowledge of the NT for reasons that are apparent from my profile) does not say anything about God knowing all of our deeds and details of our lives.



    Greetings. My tag is jaywill. But I happen to be uing GSWILL's computer at the moment.

    Have you considered that Psalm 139 is David's psalm about how extensively and completely a man is known by God ?

    Please read Psalm 139 as one place in the Old Testament revealing God's total knowledge of a man's inner and outer being.


    God is referred to as the creator, a "man of war" and whole bunch of other gnarly things,


    Many other titles are also mentioned.


    but I don't see anything about God being able to see all of your good deeds and bad deeds and use that to render a verdict of eternity in Heaven or eternity in Hell or something in between.


    God's knowledge of our deeds is infallible all the way around.

    Proverbs 20:27 says - "The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, Searching all the innermost parts of the inner being."

    Every man and women has a human spirit deep within their human soul. Proverbs says that this human spirit is the lamp of Jehovah. It illuminates to God all the innermost motives, inclinations, intentions, and movements of the entire inner being of man.

    So His knowledge of us is infallible and extensive to the uttermost. This is a very good thing. The passing of even one second of thought can be examined by God as if it were the passing of a whole year. On a subatomic level God's familiarity with every process of our motive and thinking is crystal clear to Him.

    When we are born again, some of the light of the lamp of Jehovah also illumininates to ourselves what we are doing.


    Quite the contrary, a look at the Bible seems to clearly indicate that God left it to man to enforce his laws, as evidence by the veritable myriad of death penalties and lashing penalties and excommunications penalties prescribed by the OT. In fact, as far as I can recall, the OT says nothing at all about posthumous reward and punishment.


    Partially I agree with this. The first period of human life up to the time after Noah's Flood was a time of Anarchy. And I do not mean that in a negative sense necessarily. It was a time when man was ruled by his conscience.

    The result of this time of real self ruling anarchy was the flood of Noah. God brought in the flood because Anrachy led to the imagination of man's heart becoming only evil continually and the earth being filled with violence.

    After the destruction of the world of Anarchy, God had a new beginning with Noah and the 7 other people in the ark. At that time God ordained Human Government.

    Ideally, those who listen to the conscience were to step in and rule over those who did not. Capital punishment was ordained then by God whereas before it was forbidden (Gen. 9:6,7) .

    Human government is ordained by God to replace the old system of Anarchy.

    We should think of the world in this way.

    Government is better than no government.
    Good government is better than bad government.
    God's government is best of all.

    So I agree that God left substantial governance up to man. But in the ultimate judgment we are all accountable finally to God. And the last judgment will be the last judgment.

    Only God is qualified to conduct that examination. And He will do so in Jesus Christ - the Godman - the Son of Man, the Son of God.

    "For neither does the Father judge anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, In order that all may hnor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father wo sent Him." (John 5:22,23)

    Father of the Triune God has committed the Saving and the Judging of all mankind into the hands of Jesus Christ the Son of the Father.

    " ... He [God] has set a day in which He is to judge the world in righteusness by the man whom He has designated. having furnished proof to all by raising Him from the dead." (Acts 17:31)

    Christ, the Man crucified for our sins that we may be redeemed and resurrected from the dead, to demonstrate God's accceptance of His sacrifice, is also the Judge who will judge the world in righteousness.
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
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    06 Aug '12 17:28
    Originally posted by sh76
    As far as I can tell, the Bible (or at least the OT - I'm not quite up on my knowledge of the NT for reasons that are apparent from my profile) does not say anything about God knowing all of our deeds and details of our lives. God is referred to as the creator, a "man of war" and whole bunch of other gnarly things, but I don't see anything about God being able ...[text shortened]... s are unenforceable"? Does anyone know of any archaeological evidence on this question?
    It seems clear from the early books of the Old Testament that God is not thought of as being all-knowing or all-present at that time. Those concepts develped over time. Since God is the Creator of all things, His knowledge has to be vastly superior to any other being and to some this qualifies God as all-knowing, because He can even deduce what we are probably thinking.
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    06 Aug '12 17:32
    if i was creating an intelligent device, i might add a component that transmits live updates to a central database. this component would record everything processed in this device's CPU. later on, i would be able to access and process the entire recorded memory of the device.

    such information would be useful in determining any errors that i may have made in the hardware or software of the device
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    06 Aug '12 19:35
    Originally posted by JS357
    Here is a partial response to your question, WRT the life after death aspect. This Christian response relies on the NT and OT. It does not provide an explicit yes or no, but draws its conclusions based in implications of various Bible verses that it cites or quotes.

    http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2008/08-20a.html

    Example:

    quote:

    But bey ...[text shortened]... ).

    unquote.

    This ambiguously suggests life after death, if not eternal life after death.
    Well said, Job is the oldest book of the Bible.
  8. SubscriberSuzianne
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    06 Aug '12 22:38
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    Exactly.
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    06 Aug '12 23:21
    Originally posted by whodey
    Well said, Job is the oldest book of the Bible.
    Actually there are a number of Q&A style entries on a variety of related topics accessible from that site.

    mhttp://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2008/08-20a.html

    Without wanting to get into any arguments at the moment I will only say that the small sample I looked at looked like pretty understandable Christian answers, but I don't pretend to know if these answers are "correct."
  10. Standard membersh76
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    07 Aug '12 00:511 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    Well said, Job is the oldest book of the Bible.
    Is that right? Well, that's not what we were taught. We were taught the Pentateuch are the oldest 5 books. The Talmud debates when and whether Job existed, but there seems to be little indication that the book of Job is older than the 5 books of Moses.
  11. Standard membersh76
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    07 Aug '12 00:541 edit
    Originally posted by GSWILL
    As far as I can tell, the Bible (or at least the OT - I'm not quite up on my knowledge of the NT for reasons that are apparent from my profile) does not say anything about God knowing all of our deeds and details of our lives.



    Greetings. My tag is jaywill. But I happen to be uing GSWILL's computer at the moment.

    Have you conside His sacrifice, is also the Judge who will judge the world in righteousness.
    Thank you.

    Those are all kind of late in the game to proclaim something of such significance, though.

    Could the concept of the all-knowing God have been developed some time between the writing of the first several books of the Bible and the writing of those books you reference?

    Psalms and Proverbs, for example, were written by David and Solomon respectively, who lived several hundred years after the events of the early Bible books.
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    07 Aug '12 02:52
    Originally posted by sh76
    Thank you.

    Those are all kind of late in the game to proclaim something of such significance, though.

    Could the concept of the all-knowing God have been developed some time between the writing of the first several books of the Bible and the writing of those books you reference?

    Psalms and Proverbs, for example, were written by David and Solomon respectively, who lived several hundred years after the events of the early Bible books.

    Those are all kind of late in the game to proclaim something of such significance, though.


    From God's perspective all things He does are at the right time.

    God is very profound. And the disclosure of His eternal purpose was unfolding over generations. No era was insignificant. Nothing is too late are too early.

    At the appointed time God moves in the accomplishment of His will.


    Could the concept of the all-knowing God have been developed some time between the writing of the first several books of the Bible and the writing of those books you reference?


    Perhaps you are approaching the Bible only as a socialogical production of a developing culture. I am taking it more as a revelation from God to man.

    The all-knowingness of God would be an attribute of God from eternity. It was not imaginatively added on by mere human concoction. His omniscience is an attribute of His being that has been with Him as long as He has been.

    The oldest book in the Hebrew Canon is the book of Job. I think in this oldest book of the Bible God's omniscience is revealed.

    1.) He knows all men's iniquities (Job 11:11)
    2.) He has wisdom and might (Job 12:13)
    3.) With Him is wisdom and both the deceiver and the deceived are His (12:16).
    4.) He uncovers things in darkness and brings to light (12:22)
    5.) It is implied that it is virtually impossible for man to contend with Him (12:8) (though Job wants to)
    6.) No profane man can come before Him (12:16)

    I could go on and on from the book of Job. The title Almighty is used more in the book of Job than any other book of the Bible I am pretty sure.

    The closing chapters are about His infinite knowledge as the Creator.
    And throughout the book Job insists that God knows exactly how innnocent or guilty Job is without any error. It is this discrepency in Job's experience which has him so perplexed. He knows that God KNOWS how righteous he (Job) is.

    So I would say that the oldest book of the Bible portrays this omniscience of God as an attribute.


    Psalms and Proverbs, for example, were written by David and Solomon respectively, who lived several hundred years after the events of the early Bible books.


    By refering to the book of Job above as I have, I think it should be clear that the earliest canonical book portrays God as all knowing.

    Consider this utterance in Job about God's extensive knowledge of man -

    "For His eyes are upon the ways of a man, And He sees all his steps. There is no darkness and no shadow of death where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.

    For He does not need to consider man further, that he should go to God in litigation. ... Hence He knows their actions ... " (see Job 34:21-35)


    There should be no question on our part that God is portrayed as omniscient from the earliest book of the Bible.

    Having said that, I would add that sometimes He appeared to not know something. But this was usually for man's sake to stop and consider his state.

    For instance God asked Adam after he sinned "Where are you ?" But this is not because God did not know where Adam was hiding. It was to get Adam to consider where he is and how his fellowship with God has been altered by his disobedience.

    Likewise with Cain - "Where is your brother?". Being omniscient, of course God knows that Abel has just been murdered. He asks Cain where his brother is to stir up Cain's conscience to consider the crime he has just committed.

    But from Job, the oldest book, it is clear that God is all-knowing.
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    07 Aug '12 04:392 edits
    Originally posted by sh76
    Thank you.

    Those are all kind of late in the game to proclaim something of such significance, though.

    Could the concept of the all-knowing God have been developed some time between the writing of the first several books of the Bible and the writing of those books you reference?

    Psalms and Proverbs, for example, were written by David and Solomon respectively, who lived several hundred years after the events of the early Bible books.
    "Those are all kind of late in the game to proclaim something of such significance, though. "

    I'm coming in from the outside, but how does being late in the game disqualify a POV?

    What do you think of the reference I provided? It generally cycled back to the OT, even though it in some cases, started from NT springboards.

    Edit: note Olympics references. 🙂

    Are we finally having a discussion with a Judaic POV? I hope so. We need the diversity.
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    07 Aug '12 07:142 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill

    Those are all kind of late in the game to proclaim something of such significance, though.


    From God's perspective all things He does are at the right time.

    God is very profound. And the disclosure of His eternal purpose was unfolding over generations. No era was insignificant. Nothing is too late are too early.

    At the appoin ed.

    But from [b]Job
    , the oldest book, it is clear that God is all-knowing.[/b]
    This is very good, however, let me make a comment on the following portion of your post:

    "It is this discrepency in Job's experience which has him so perplexed. He knows that God KNOWS how righteous he (Job) is."

    Job could not understand why God would allow misfortune to come upon him because of how righteous Job thought he was. Job did not realize he needed to repent of his self-righteousness. Job got to the point that he was blaming God for not being fair to him by allowing him to go through all these sufferings when he believed he did not deserve it.

    I believe this whole experience was used by God as discipline to make Job even better than he already was by getting rid of Job's pride in his self-righteousness. So it had a much deeper purpose than just winning a bet with Satan.

    In Chapter 42 Job finally sees himself in a different way and repents. He realizes he has been talking about things, as if he knew all about them, but that he really doesn't understand.

    "Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
    Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
    Listen, please, and let me speak;
    You said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’
    I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
    But now my eye sees You.
    Therefore I abhor myself,
    And repent in dust and ashes.”

    (Job 42:3-6 NKJV)
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    07 Aug '12 12:053 edits
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    This is very good, however, let me make a comment on the following portion of your post:

    "It is this discrepency in Job's experience which has him so perplexed. He knows that God KNOWS how righteous he (Job) is."

    Job could not understand why God would allow misfortune to come upon him because of how righteous Job thought he was. Job did not realize he sees You.
    Therefore I abhor myself,
    And repent in dust and ashes.”

    (Job 42:3-6 NKJV)
    This is very good, however, let me make a comment on the following portion of your post:

    "It is this discrepency in Job's experience which has him so perplexed. He knows that God KNOWS how righteous he (Job) is."

    Job could not understand why God would allow misfortune to come upon him because of how righteous Job thought he was. Job did not realize he needed to repent of his self-righteousness. Job got to the point that he was blaming God for not being fair to him by allowing him to go through all these sufferings when he believed he did not deserve it.


    Very good insight. God says to Job and to everyone - "Will you condemn Me that you may be justified ?" (Jon 40:8)

    Interestingly, in Jesus Christ this is just what God has done for all men. The Son of God was condemned that we all who believe into Him may be justified.

    I agree with you. But I am not sure that you can really get the reason Job wanted in the book of Job. I do believe that elsewhere in the Bible's revelation, we can get more light on Job's suffering and the whys of it. But we are not told too much in the book of Job itself.

    In the book of Job itself, I don't think God EVER explains to Job what and why He has been causing Job to pass through these things.

    There seems to me a kind of divine audacity when God finally appears and begins to speak to Job. I can find no passage where God either apologizes, or explains, or informs Job exactly what is going on. He scolds Job. He scolds the three friends of Job.

    This impression from the book of Job always amazes me. It convinces me that this book is divinely inspired. I am opened minded to see anywhere in Job where you think God explains to Job why God is putting him through these things. But I have never found it.

    Essentially, when God finally comes in answer to Job's complaints, God just says in essense - "You really don't know ANYTHING". And at that Job repents.

    So I like what you wrote there. But I think we need the rest of the Bible to help us come to that kind of conclusion. Now, I think that the real answer to Job's suffering has to be found most clearly in the New Testament. In the experience of the Apostle Paul in books like Philippians and especially Second Corinthians we see how God strips His lovers of all self righteousness but infuses them, imparts to them, transfuses into them His own divine life and nature to produce not a "good man" but a "God man".

    The thought of man is deep seated that God wants "good" people. But more than that God placed man before "the tree of life" as opposed to "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". God created man in order to unite with man. God created man to indwell man and to "organically" blend with man to produce the mingling and united union of divinity and humanity.

    Jesus Christ is the universal standard model, not of a good man as much as a Godman - a uniting in life of the eternal uncreated divine life with the created human life.

    I believe the book of Job is a step along the way in this unfolding revelation of God dispensing Himself into man. I think we need especially the New Testament to gain insight into Job's experience.

    A little more space and time I would need to demonstrate this more clearly.
    Good post.



    I believe this whole experience was used by God as discipline to make Job even better than he already was by getting rid of Job's pride in his self-righteousness. So it had a much deeper purpose than just winning a bet with Satan.
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