listening to a religious program yesterday on the radio i heard an analogy on calvinistic election. it was said that it was like being on a cruise boat that the captain had set for a far port and was absolutely sure to get to the port and that the passengers were free to do as they wished on the boat as it was enroute with no doubt as to the far port but that their choice of activity on the boat during the voyage could have no bearing on their getting to the distant port ( meaning the pre-election to Heaven ).
05 Sep 19
@mister-moggy saidIs the boat a metaphor for this world?
listening to a religious program yesterday on the radio i heard an analogy on calvinistic election. it was said that it was like being on a cruise boat that the captain had set for a far port and was absolutely sure to get to the port and that the passengers were free to do as they wished on the boat as it was enroute with no doubt as to the far port but that their choi ...[text shortened]... e could have no bearing on their getting to the distant port ( meaning the pre-election to Heaven ).
Did the one giving the analogy say that God's sovereignty overrides man's will relative to election?
That God chose, knowing all of human history to the very end, before anyone was ever born, who would be saved and who would be lost forever?
If God did that, then I'd say he is a worse monster then anyone has ever accused him of being in this forum to date.
That ain't God. It's Satan's idea. Bizarre how anyone can entertain that concept.
05 Sep 19
@secondson saidHave you since learnt what a metaphor is then?
Is the boat a metaphor for this world?
05 Sep 19
@mister-moggy saidWhy on Earth were you listening to that pile of poo... were you incapacitated and had just left the radio on your local Sunday Special?
listening to a religious program yesterday on the radio i heard an analogy on calvinistic election. it was said that it was like being on a cruise boat that the captain had set for a far port and was absolutely sure to get to the port and that the passengers were free to do as they wished on the boat as it was enroute with no doubt as to the far port but that their choi ...[text shortened]... e could have no bearing on their getting to the distant port ( meaning the pre-election to Heaven ).
06 Sep 19
@mister-moggy saidThis is Calvinism.
listening to a religious program yesterday on the radio i heard an analogy on calvinistic election. it was said that it was like being on a cruise boat that the captain had set for a far port and was absolutely sure to get to the port and that the passengers were free to do as they wished on the boat as it was enroute with no doubt as to the far port but that their choi ...[text shortened]... e could have no bearing on their getting to the distant port ( meaning the pre-election to Heaven ).
While yes, there are some Calvinists here, I do think they're outnumbered.
I lean more towards Wesleyanism myself.
06 Sep 19
@suzianne saidWeslyanism ... interesting.
This is Calvinism.
While yes, there are some Calvinists here, I do think they're outnumbered.
I lean more towards Wesleyanism myself.
https://www.messiah.edu/info/20265/the_three_traditions_that_shape_our_mission_and_why/328/wesleyanism
If it is as the link describes, it is a laudable enough goal. But, for the purposes of debate, is it anything more than "act right, and let the question of salvation work itself out"?
Which, by all means, sure, do; it's noble. But it does not help much in resolving questions of the sort posed on a Spirituality Forum.
06 Sep 19
@secondson saidThe Calvinist idea is that, since God is omniscient, He knows in advance how each human will exercise his freewill, and therefore whether each human is saved or damned.
Is the boat a metaphor for this world?
Did the one giving the analogy say that God's sovereignty overrides man's will relative to election?
That God chose, knowing all of human history to the very end, before anyone was ever born, who would be saved and who would be lost forever?
If God did that, then I'd say he is a worse monster then anyone has ever accused him o ...[text shortened]... forum to date.
That ain't God. It's Satan's idea. Bizarre how anyone can entertain that concept.
06 Sep 19
@bigdoggproblem saidLike what questions?
Weslyanism ... interesting.
https://www.messiah.edu/info/20265/the_three_traditions_that_shape_our_mission_and_why/328/wesleyanism
If it is as the link describes, it is a laudable enough goal. But, for the purposes of debate, is it anything more than "act right, and let the question of salvation work itself out"?
Which, by all means, sure, do; it's noble. But it does not help much in resolving questions of the sort posed on a Spirituality Forum.
This is just a further philosophical distinction of Christianity itself, possibly only of further interest to Christians. Any 'deeper questions' are resolved by Christianity itself. I'm Episcopalian, and therefore a part of the Wesleyan tradition, not Calvinist. The Wesleyan/Calvinist divide is really just distinction between Christians.
I have no beef with your link, btw, it seems correct in its definitions.
@moonbus saidNo argument there. God indeed knows the end from the beginning.
The Calvinist idea is that, since God is omniscient, He knows in advance how each human will exercise his freewill, and therefore whether each human is saved or damned.
Isaiah 46:9.10
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
To extrapolate from the concept of the sovereignty of God, that because He knows who will and will not choose Him, that God caused them to choose thus, undermines what the scriptures teach with regards to man's responsibility.
The fact is that the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man are both taught in scripture.
How can it be logical that God would send His only begotten Son to die for the sins of the world(all of humanity), yet choosing out of the masses, to be saved by the death of His Son , only a remnant?
No. God did not, before anything was created, look to the future at all who would be born and pick and choose who would be saved or lost. It's not in the Bible.
BTW, as I'm sure you know my first post was in reply to the OP. It seems we're saying the same thing though.
06 Sep 19
@divegeester saidHave you learned yet that everlasting punishment isn't a metaphor?
Have you since learnt what a metaphor is then?
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06 Sep 19
@secondson saidPerhaps your Bible is missing Ephesians Verses 4-11?
No. God did not, before anything was created, look to the future at all who would be born and pick and choose who would be saved or lost. It's not in the Bible.
“For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”