29 Sep 07
4 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasI really don't think it's all that difficult to reconcile all this. What does it mean to "believeth on him"? Does one truly believe in Jesus if one doesn't follow his teachings? Anything short of following his teachings is nothing more than crying "Lord, Lord" like some incantation.
You are a riot.
Why don't you conduct your own study of Christ's words, no1?
Here's a good place to start:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24).
"For God so loved the world, that ...[text shortened]... because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:16-18).
Jesus even warns against this:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
Clearly, nor is it just about doing 'works'.
It's about changing one's heart and humbly following the will of the Father. It's about living a life of humility, love, compassion, justice, etc. simply because it's the right thing to do. If one lives such a life, one will be following the teachings of Jesus.
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by no1marauderWe are saved through our faith which is a gift in itself. For example, the man who died on the cross next to Jesus did not have the "works" to enter heaven. However, he expressed faith in Christ and entered heaven because of his faith in Christ. Christ said it himself.
You're committing the Fallacy of Equivocation again. It seems as natural to fundies as breathing. "Salvation by Grace alone" is the doctrine that no works at all are required and you know it. Stop trying to change the meaning of every phrase when you find it convenient to your fallacious arguments.
Yes the human race is all crap accordin ...[text shortened]... the whole universe. More silly contradictions from a ridiculous superstition of semi-savages.
John 11:25 "Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life; he that believes in me will never die. Believest thou this?"
How is our faith in Christ salvation?
Matthew 26:27 And Jesus took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them saying, Drink all of it. For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
You may argue this fact, hwoever, time and time again Christ equates righteousness with faith.
Matthew 9:2 "And behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed and Jesus seeing thier faith said to the sick of teh palsy, Son, be of good cheer, thy sins be forgiven you. And behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemes."
Luke 7:48 "And Jesus said to her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, who is this that forgives sins? And he said to the woman, Your faith has saved you, go in peace."
In fact, Chirst equates those who are "perverse" as being without faith.
Matthew 17:17 "Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long will I be with you?.......Then his disciples asked, Why could we not cast him out? And Jesus said, Because of your unbelief; for verily I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard.....nothing will be impossible to you."
29 Sep 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWhat does it mean to "believeth on him"? Does one truly believe in Jesus if one doesn't follow his teachings? Anything short of following his teachings is nothing more than crying "Lord, Lord" like some incantation.
I really don't think it's all that difficult to reconcile all this. What does it mean to "believeth on him"? Does one truly believe in Jesus if one doesn't follow his teachings? Anything short of following his teachings is nothing more than crying "Lord, Lord" like some incantation.
Jesus even warns against this:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who [/i] If one lives such a life, one will be following the teachings of Jesus.
Good point. However, just to be clear, people follow Jesus because they are His sheep, not in order to be His sheep. John 10:28 says, "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand." Those who believe in Jesus Christ are saved by faith, not by works; they will never perish. Their salvation cannot be lost. If you teach otherwise, you are teaching salvation by works.
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneDoes one truly believe in Jesus if one doesn't follow his teachings? Anything short of following his teachings is nothing more than crying "Lord, Lord" like some incantation. TofOne
I really don't think it's all that difficult to reconcile all this. What does it mean to "believeth on him"? Does one truly believe in Jesus if one doesn't follow his teachings? Anything short of following his teachings is nothing more than crying "Lord, Lord" like some incantation.
Jesus even warns against this:
[b]Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who ...[text shortened]... [/i] If one lives such a life, one will be following the teachings of Jesus.
So let's think this through. If you are right then how on earth was Jesus able to grant salvation to the thief on the cross next to him simply on the basis of his faith in him. I seem to remember him saying something like " your faith has saved you" (NB-This was a guy who presumably hadn't done much in the way of following his teachings).
One could ask what does "believeth on him" mean in the context of the thief. You may be right in what you say but if so Jesus was wrong to grant this guy salvation. I prefer to edge my bets with Jesus.
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIt's about changing one's heart and humbly following the will of the Father. It's about living a life of humility, love, compassion, justice, etc. simply because it's the right thing to do. If one lives such a life, one will be following the teachings of Jesus. ThinkofOne
I really don't think it's all that difficult to reconcile all this. What does it mean to "believeth on him"? Does one truly believe in Jesus if one doesn't follow his teachings? Anything short of following his teachings is nothing more than crying "Lord, Lord" like some incantation.
Jesus even warns against this:
[b]Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who ...[text shortened]... [/i] If one lives such a life, one will be following the teachings of Jesus.
This is true but if God wants to hand out salvation to whoever he pleases (if they will accept it by faith) then who are we to argue with him. You could try a read of the parable of the talents.
There is no doubt that Jesus himself handed out salvation on no other basis than faith when he was on the cross.
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasJust as there is 'love' that is a selfish love, there is a 'faith' that is a selfish faith. I have to believe that these are not truly love or faith at all. This type of 'love' and 'faith' end with what one receives. It seems that for the vast majority of those who call themselves Christian, their 'faith' ends with the belief that they are granted 'eternal life'. Their 'faith' does not extend to the belief of following the teachings of Jesus: To living a life of humility, love, compassion, justice, etc. Their hearts have not been transformed. The desires of the self remain their Lord.
[b]What does it mean to "believeth on him"? Does one truly believe in Jesus if one doesn't follow his teachings? Anything short of following his teachings is nothing more than crying "Lord, Lord" like some incantation.
Good point. However, just to be clear, people follow Jesus because they are His sheep, not in order to be His sheep ...[text shortened]... r salvation cannot be lost. If you teach otherwise, you are teaching salvation by works.[/b]
Back up one verse:
John 10:27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me
29 Sep 07
Much of the confusion for those who claim that Paul brought something conceptually or foundationally different than did our Lord Jesus Christ lies in the misapplication of doctrine. As has been stated, one must know one's audience. Scripture must be viewed in light of several factors, not simply the superficial and immediate meaning.
According to such a one-dimensional view of Scripture, the only folks who can claim to be Christians are those walking around without hands or eyes.
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterRead my reply to Epiphinehas above.
Does one truly believe in Jesus if one doesn't follow his teachings? Anything short of following his teachings is nothing more than crying "Lord, Lord" like some incantation. TofOne
So let's think this through. If you are right then how on earth was Jesus able to grant salvation to the thief on the cross next to him simply on the basis of his faith ...[text shortened]... if so Jesus was wrong to grant this guy salvation. I prefer to edge my bets with Jesus.
Do you think it beyond the powers of Jesus to peer inside a man's heart to know if it has truly been transformed? To peer inside a man's heart to know that if given the chance, the thief would humbly follow His teachings?
If you're going to hedge your bets with Jesus, then you might want to consider heeding the warning of Matthew 7:21-23 above.
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIf you're going to hedge your bets with Jesus, then you might want to consider heeding the warning of Matthew 7:21-23 above.
Read my reply to Epiphinehas above.
Do you think it beyond the powers of Jesus to peer inside a man's heart to know if it has truly been transformed? To peer inside a man's heart to know that if given the chance, the thief would humbly follow His teachings?
If you're going to hedge your bets with Jesus, then you might want to consider heeding the warning of Matthew 7:21-23 above.
Hedge your bets!!? You speak as if Christ were untrustworthy. Any person who has a genuine faith in Christ would never "hedge his bets." Anyone who considers doing so is still operating under the law, not God's grace: "For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace" (Galatians 5:4).
There is no need to hedge one's bets, unless you don't have any faith to begin with.
Answer this question: if salvation could be lost, why did Jesus say in John 10:28 that He gives eternal life and that His sheep will NEVER perish? If salvation can be lost, then Christ should have said, "and they may perish..." or, "they CAN perish." But He said, THEY WILL NEVER PERISH.
So, will they never perish? Or can they?
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneDo you think it beyond the powers of Jesus to peer inside a man's heart to know if it has truly been transformed? To peer inside a man's heart to know that if given the chance, the thief would humbly follow His teachings? THINK OF ONE
Read my reply to Epiphinehas above.
Do you think it beyond the powers of Jesus to peer inside a man's heart to know if it has truly been transformed? To peer inside a man's heart to know that if given the chance, the thief would humbly follow His teachings?
If you're going to hedge your bets with Jesus, then you might want to consider heeding the warning of Matthew 7:21-23 above.
I think it's well within his powers to peer inside any part of any man's heart. I also think it is well within his powers to grant salvation to anyone who is empowered by God to receive salvation. The thief was prompted by the Holy Spirit to ask Jesus to remember him when he reached his kingdom . Jesus's response was to say that this act of faith was enough to save him. Do you think this act of salvation is beyond Jesus? Jesus DID NOT say "I can see into your heart that if you had had the chance then you would have humbly followed me" He simply said "your faith has saved you" . You seem to want to take it further than this simple truth by second guessing what he might have been thinking.
You see even if you are right one could still argue that it is faith that saves because presumably all those who you look at now and judge as not being saved because you deem them not humble enough , can be seen much more deeply by christ who sees that "given the chance they might have been humbly following his teachings" . This is the whole point. How are we to know and judge? We can't . The man sitting next to you in church who you may deem arrogant and not following jesus may infact be busting his guts every day to follow but messing it up , or he may be a long way from understanding.
The problem is that when you place your own arbiotary boundaries on who is saved/not saved and then link it to some kind of works or levels of perfection you have negated what christ taught and did. Salvation stops becoming a free gift from God and starts reverting back to works . Who decides who is humble "enough" to be saved? You ? Me? What if I decide that you are just not quite perfectly humble just yet? How long must you wait then for the assurance that God promises us via faith? Maybe you might never quite be perfect in humility , what then? Are you doomed? No. Keep it simple. Stick to what christ said .
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasThere is a truth that needs to be realized. Once that truth is realized, one's heart is transformed and one lives a life of humility, love, compassion, justice, etc. Once that truth has been realized, there is no 'unrealizing' it. Humility, love, compassion, justice, etc. are eternal. The desires of the self are of this world and hence finite.
[b]If you're going to hedge your bets with Jesus, then you might want to consider heeding the warning of Matthew 7:21-23 above.
Hedge your bets!!? You speak as if Christ were untrustworthy. Any person who has a genuine faith in Christ would never "hedge his bets." Anyone who considers doing so is still operating under the law, not God's grace: ...[text shortened]... " But He said, THEY WILL NEVER PERISH.
So, will they never perish? Or can they?[/b]
As for 'hedge your bets', it's just an expression. Read the post to which I replied. Perhaps I should have put it in quotes. In neither case do I see an implication that Jesus is untrustworthy. In fact, I submit that if one finds Jesus as completely trustworthy, one will humbly follow his teachings instead of following the desires of the self.
As to the quote from Galations, I take that to mean that if one's heart hasn't been transformed, it means little to follow the law in an effort to 'look the part'.
29 Sep 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneFirst of all, you have not answered my question: if salvation could be lost, why did Jesus say in John 10:28 that He gives eternal life and that His sheep will NEVER perish? If salvation can be lost, then Christ should have said, "and they may perish..." or, "they CAN perish." But He said, THEY WILL NEVER PERISH.
There is a truth that needs to be realized. Once that truth is realized, one's heart is transformed and one lives a life of humility, love, compassion, justice, etc. Once that truth has been realized, there is no 'unrealizing' it. Humility, love, compassion, justice, etc. are eternal. The desires of the self are of this world and hence finite.
As t been transformed, it means little to follow the law in an effort to 'look the part'.
So, will they never perish? Or can they?
There is a truth that needs to be realized. Once that truth is realized, one's heart is transformed and one lives a life of humility, love, compassion, justice, etc.
What do you mean by truth that needs to be realized? Because that sounds an awful lot like Gnosticism, which teaches that salvation is achieved through special knowledge (gnosis).
On the contrary, the Bible teaches justification by faith: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1).
29 Sep 07
2 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou made the following claim:
Do you think it beyond the powers of Jesus to peer inside a man's heart to know if it has truly been transformed? To peer inside a man's heart to know that if given the chance, the thief would humbly follow His teachings? THINK OF ONE
I think it's well within his powers to peer inside any part of any man's heart. I also think it is well within his ility , what then? Are you doomed? No. Keep it simple. Stick to what christ said .
If you are right then how on earth was Jesus able to grant salvation to the thief on the cross next to him simply on the basis of his faith in him. I seem to remember him saying something like " your faith has saved you" ...One could ask what does "believeth on him" mean in the context of the thief. You may be right in what you say but if so Jesus was wrong to grant this guy salvation.
I guess if we're going to 'stick to what Christ said', we'll have to look at Luke 23:43: "And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
So we're left without knowing why Jesus said this. You made the claim that if I'm right in what I say, then 'Jesus was wrong to grant this guy salvation'. I merely gave you a scenario where your claim wouldn't necessarily be true.
As to "The man sitting next to you in church who you may deem arrogant and not following jesus may infact be busting his guts every day to follow but messing it up , or he may be a long way from understanding", I'd have to believe that he has yet to transform his heart. Likely the reason is that he's not willing to give up the desires of the self. So he's basically trying to have it both ways.
While the following speaks specifically to wealth, I'd think that it'd apply to all desires of the self:
Matthew 6:24
"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth."
The boundaries are anything but 'arbitrary'. Just do what Jesus asks and follow Him. And not just when it doesn't get in the way of the desires of the self.
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWould you like to respond to my post?
There is a truth that needs to be realized. Once that truth is realized, one's heart is transformed and one lives a life of humility, love, compassion, justice, etc. Once that truth has been realized, there is no 'unrealizing' it. Humility, love, compassion, justice, etc. are eternal. The desires of the self are of this world and hence finite.
As ...[text shortened]... t been transformed, it means little to follow the law in an effort to 'look the part'.
30 Sep 07
2 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasI didn't answer your question directly because it's a loaded question. Instead I tried to convey how I believe things work. I don't see how what I posted is in conflict with John 10:28. Ask an honest question and I'll answer it the best I can.
First of all, you have not answered my question: if salvation could be lost, why did Jesus say in John 10:28 that He gives eternal life and that His sheep will NEVER perish? If salvation can be lost, then Christ should have said, "and they may perish..." or, "they CAN perish." But He said, THEY WILL NEVER PERISH.
So, will they never perish? Or can the g justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1).
Look at my earlier post about 'faith'. As I see it, faith must go beyond a selfish faith. One must believe in (have faith in) the teachings of Jesus strongly enough to follow them. One comes to realize that it's the only thing that makes sense: Living a life of humility, love, compassion, justice, etc.
EDIT: Faith can lead to understanding. After all, it's ""You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free". Cool how it all ties out.