The Catholic Saints

Originally posted by Conrau K
That's ok. Corinthians 13 is one of the most powerful passages of all the Pauline letters. I'm happy to discuss it anyway.

please see above, edited text

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
please see above, edited text

how you can state that which is perfect arrives, correlates to 'meeting', with God i do not know, perhaps you would like to explain it, for Paul himself uses the illustration of a metal mirror, in which he sees a hazy outline, this would seem to relate to knowledge, rather than an experience.

At present, our knowledge of God is partial; in the future, it will be perfect because we will see Him face to face:

At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. (v 11)

This translation is a little unclear. The NRSV reads:

For now we in a mirror, dimly but then we will see face to face.

St Paul is explaining that the gift of prophesy, tongues and knowledge are temporary. When the perfect comes, when there is a face to face encounter, then there will be no need for such gifts. Thus, his argument goes, love, not prophesy, is the basis of Christian life.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]how you can state that which is perfect arrives, correlates to 'meeting', with God i do not know, perhaps you would like to explain it, for Paul himself uses the illustration of a metal mirror, in which he sees a hazy outline, this would seem to relate to knowledge, rather than an experience.

At present, our knowledge of God is partial; in the fut ...[text shortened]... or such gifts. Thus, his argument goes, love and not prophesy, is the basis of Christian life.[/b]

mmm, not very convincing. I myself have not researched it, but statements like, 'our knowledge at present is partial', leave me to wonder, 'face to face', you say? mmm

the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, states,

(1 Corinthians 13:9-10) . . .For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. . .

it seems that the emphasis is not so much on going, but on the arrival of some agency.

just a little note on the phrase, 'done away with', for in a footnote in our bibles, it reads, literally, 'it will be made ineffective', with regard to prophesying, speaking in tongues etc.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
mmm, not very convincing. I myself have not researched it, but statements like, 'our knowledge at present is partial', leave me to wonder, 'face to face', you say? mmm

the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, states,

(1 Corinthians 13:9-10) . . .For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete ...[text shortened]...  .

it seems that the emphasis is not so much on going, but on the arrival of some agency.

I don't see what is under dispute. St Paul says that our knowledge will no longer be partial when we see face to face.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]And is there even one scripture in the Bible where it shows that an apostle privately forgave someones sins and pronounced them forgiven as the priest do now?

No; I do not see why that would be recorded in the Scriptures anyway.

And then you have the scriptures in 1Cor 13:2, 8-11 who was written by Paul and here he mentions that the many gi ...[text shortened]... eological virtues of faith, hope and love. I think you have seriously misconstrued these verses.

Well I tend to think that would be an important thing that would have been recorded. If they were forgiving sins as the priest do today, I would think it would have been a big thing and would have happened many times.
And I agree with Robbie that the words "done away with" pretty much mean what they say.
Also I wonder why the Pope does not have the other gifts the Apostles had such as healing power?

Originally posted by galveston75
Well I tend to think that would be an important thing that would have been recorded. If they were forgiving sins as the priest do today, I would think it would have been a big thing and would have happened many times.
And I agree with Robbie that the words "done away with" pretty much mean what they say.
Also I wonder why the Pope does not have the other gifts the Apostles had such as healing power?

Well I tend to think that would be an important thing that would have been recorded. If they were forgiving sins as the priest do today, I would think it would have been a big thing and would have happened many times.

Given that Jesus did entrust them with the power to forgive sins, I can only assume that they did exercise that power. Early church authors clearly show a tradition of confession:

"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 100]).

"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (St Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

And I agree with Robbie that the words "done away with" pretty much mean what they say.

So do I. However, St Paul is not talking about the apostles. He is talking about the gifts of prophesy and tongues (gifts which men and women had in the early church.)

Also I wonder why the Pope does not have the other gifts the Apostles had such as healing power?

This was not a power of the apostles. Miracles are attributed to other Christians. Both St Paul and Barnabas perform miracles. This is not an apostolic power.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]Well I tend to think that would be an important thing that would have been recorded. If they were forgiving sins as the priest do today, I would think it would have been a big thing and would have happened many times.

Given that Jesus did entrust them with the power to forgive sins, I can only assume that they did exercise that power. Early churc ...[text shortened]... er Christians. Both St Paul and Barnabas perform miracles. This is not an apostolic power.[/b]

Humm....Matt 10:5,8. Luke 10:1,8,9. Acts 3:1-16; 4:14; 5:15,16; 8:6,7; 9:32-34; 28:8,9. All these seem to differ.

Acts 9:36-40 says theat Peter also rasied up a young girl from death. I'm still curious why the Pope can't do these things if he is really used by God? Just think of the good he could do to us all.

Originally posted by galveston75
Humm....Matt 10:5,8. Luke 10:1,8,9. Acts 3:1-16; 4:14; 5:15,16; 8:6,7; 9:32-34; 28:8,9. All these seem to differ.

Acts 9:36-40 says theat Peter also rasied up a young girl from death. I'm still curious why the Pope can't do these things if he is really used by God? Just think of the good he could do to us all.

Again, disciples other than the apostles were able to cure the sick and perform many amazing miracles. Your criticism applies not just to the Pope then but to all Christians.

Catholics do in fact claim miracles. Many saints are credited with such miracles, both before and after death. Why doesn't the Pope perform miracles? Because miracles themselves are not good. Jesus himself berated the Pharisees when they demanded a miracle from him. Jesus came not to show us a lot of wondrous magic tricks but to preach the kingdom of God, repentance and the forgiveness of sins.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Again, disciples other than the apostles were able to cure the sick and perform many amazing miracles. Your criticism applies not just to the Pope then but to all Christians.

Catholics do in fact claim miracles. Many saints are credited with such miracles, both before and after death. Why doesn't the Pope perform miracles? Because miracles themselves ar ...[text shortened]... wondrous magic tricks but to preach the kingdom of God, repentance and the forgiveness of sins.

on the contrary, miracles were used to establish a persons credentials, for example, Moses was given the power to perform miracles, as a credential that he was from God, Christ also, in a similar way, performed miracles and those who witnessed them , came to the conclusion, that he was indeed from God. when he raised the widow of Nains son, in full public, the people declared, 'a great prophet has been raised among us'. Christ himself stated, to the Pharisees, believe on account of 'the works', themselves

Originally posted by Conrau K
Again, disciples other than the apostles were able to cure the sick and perform many amazing miracles. Your criticism applies not just to the Pope then but to all Christians.

Catholics do in fact claim miracles. Many saints are credited with such miracles, both before and after death. Why doesn't the Pope perform miracles? Because miracles themselves ar ...[text shortened]... wondrous magic tricks but to preach the kingdom of God, repentance and the forgiveness of sins.

No not all Christians during that time performed miricles so that is strange to say that.
The Pope according to Catholics is even higher in position then Jesus was when he was one earth from what I hear. So again why can't he at least do what Jesus was able to do?
If these gifts that the Apostles had and as you say continued on to the future to the Catholics, why did Paul not ever mention it during his ministries?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
on the contrary, miracles were used to establish a persons credentials, for example, Moses was given the power to perform miracles, as a credential that he was from God, Christ also, in a similar way, performed miracles and those who witnessed them , came to the conclusion, that he was indeed from God. when he raised the widow of Nains son, in full ...[text shortened]... us'. Christ himself stated, to the Pharisees, believe on account of 'the works', themselves

Of course. However, he also criticised those who demanded miracles:
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, "Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you."
39 He said to them in reply, "An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.
40 Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, 29 so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
41 At the judgment, the men of Nineveh will arise with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and there is something greater than Jonah here.
42 At the judgment the queen of the south will arise with this generation and condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and there is something greater than Solomon here.
Matthew 12:38-42

14 And he was casting out a devil: and the same was dumb. And when he had cast out the devil, the dumb spoke: and the multitudes, were in admiration at it. 15 But some of them said: He casts out devils by Beelzebub, the prince of devils.
16 And others tempting, asked of him a sign from heaven.
Luke 11:14-16

Jesus does not want to be a miracle worker. Nor does he does he enjoy being 'tempted'. Miracles confirm his divine mission but they should not be the substance of faith. The miracles are a last resort:

58 And he wrought not many miracles there, because of their unbelief.
Matthew 13:58

I do not deny that Jesus performed miracles and that they had an essential role in his ministry. What I deny is that Christians need now expect miracles. Faith is the evidence of things unseen and the gospels clearly indicate that miracles are of secondary importance.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Of course. However, he also criticised those who demanded miracles:
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, "Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you."
39 He said to them in reply, "An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.
40 Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whal s unseen and the gospels clearly indicate that miracles are of secondary importance.

we would like to take it a stage further and state that miraculous gifts have ceased altogether, whether they are gifts of healing, gifts of prophesying, etc etc.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Of course. However, he also criticised those who demanded miracles:
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, "Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you."
39 He said to them in reply, "An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.
40 Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whal ...[text shortened]... s unseen and the gospels clearly indicate that miracles are of secondary importance.

So miricles are good or are they bad? You seem to be saying both.

Originally posted by galveston75
No not all Christians during that time performed miricles so that is strange to say that.
The Pope according to Catholics is even higher in position then Jesus was when he was one earth from what I hear. So again why can't he at least do what Jesus was able to do?
If these gifts that the Apostles had and as you say continued on to the future to the Catholics, why did Paul not ever mention it during his ministries?

No not all Christians during that time performed miricles so that is strange to say that.

If you read Acts, you will see examples of Christians, not apostles, performing miracles.

The Pope according to Catholics is even higher in position then Jesus was when he was one earth from what I hear. So again why can't he at least do what Jesus was able to do?

You clearly are unacquainted with Catholicism. The Pope is no where near as great as Christ. Christ is God. The Pope can never rival him.

If these gifts that the Apostles had and as you say continued on to the future to the Catholics, why did Paul not ever mention it during his ministries?

I do not claim that these gifts were handed onto later Christians. These gifts came with Pentecost where the activity of the Holy Spirit enabled them to evangelise. What I do claim is that the power to forgive sins was handed on by the apostles. Forgiveness of sins is eminently more important than the performance of miracles.