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    any comments?
  2. Donationkirksey957
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    01 Aug '05 01:39
    Originally posted by skywalker red
    any comments?
    I believe that Jung wrote much about the term. He felt that it was made up of images, archetypes, etc that transcended time and resided in all cultures and individuals. It represented a deeper level of the unconscious. For example if I have a dream about my mother, it may represent my mother and the immediate memories and feelings I have about her. But she may represent a quality that all mothers may share in common.
  3. Standard memberNyxie
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    01 Aug '05 02:04
    Could this be the basis for similiarities in religions spanning the globe? The reason some architecture has similiarities?
  4. Donationkirksey957
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    01 Aug '05 02:08
    Originally posted by Nyxie
    Could this be the basis for similiarities in religions spanning the globe? The reason some architecture has similiarities?
    Absolutely. Let me give a couple of examples where the symbols and the symbolism are often over looked on the most basic level. I will pose it as a question as see what kind of response we get.

    What similarities do the cross and the star of David have in common?
  5. Standard memberNyxie
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    01 Aug '05 02:29
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Absolutely. Let me give a couple of examples where the symbols and the symbolism are often over looked on the most basic level. I will pose it as a question as see what kind of response we get.

    What similarities do the cross and the star of David have in common?
    I'm not sure but I know the sign of Odin and the star of david are very similiar.
  6. Donationkirksey957
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    01 Aug '05 02:35
    Originally posted by Nyxie
    I'm not sure but I know the sign of Odin and the star of david are very similiar.
    The cross is made up of two opposites, a verticle and a horizontal line. The Star of David is represented by two opposites as well. Two inverted triangles. I think Jung would argue that these symbols are no accident as they communicate that in order for one to be "whole", the person must address the "opposites" of his soul.

    Say a little bit about the sign of Odin. Of course your avatars have always been full of archetypes of strong women.
  7. Standard memberNyxie
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    01 Aug '05 02:462 edits
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    The cross is made up of two opposites, a verticle and a horizontal line. The Star of David is represented by two opposites as well. Two inverted triangles. I think Jung would argue that these symbols are no accident as they communicate ...[text shortened]... your avatars have always been full of archetypes of strong women.
    Here's a very basic picture showing the three connected triangles that represent Odin. The Valknut is the symbol of the Northeren God Odin, It is also called the 'Knot of the Fallen'.
    It symbolizes they who submit thereselfs to Odin, and also the alliance between the 9 worlds.
    The Valknut is also symbol for Odin and his brothers; Vili and Ve, as creators of the world.

    http://www.dragonoak.com/nordic3.JPG

    According to one interpretation, that of H Ellis Davidson in "Gods and Myths of Northern Europe", the valknut symbolizes the power of Woden to bind or unbind one's mind, impose or remove fetters on the mental faculties. It represents the interlinking of the nine worlds, and the spirit and power of Allfather that binds and pervades them all, the ability of Woden to travel to all 9.
  8. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    01 Aug '05 13:081 edit
    Originally posted by Nyxie
    Could this be the basis for similiarities in religions spanning the globe? The reason some architecture has similiarities?
    I'm of the opinion that the unconscious is a system of energy levels to which archetypes enable access. I also think that religions are energy systems (most often hierarchical). For a religion to be effective, it would have to correspond to the archetypal blueprint. Hence the similarities among quality religions.

    I'd like to know whether archetypes have any relation to Plato's eternal forms. Also, are the archetypes fixed in number, form and function or is it a more open set than that?

    Sadly, I don't know the comforts of a healthy, functional religion, so my practical interest in archetypes is confined to art. I vote surrealist.
  9. Standard memberPalynka
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    01 Aug '05 13:34
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    I'm of the opinion that the unconscious is a system of energy levels to archetypes enable access.
    Can you please explain what you mean by this sentence?
  10. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    01 Aug '05 13:46
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Can you please explain what you mean by this sentence?
    I've edited my post: missing preposition.

    "I'm of the opinion that the unconscious is a system of energy levels to to which archetypes enable access." If you want to experience this energy at a conscious level, that is.

  11. Standard memberPalynka
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    01 Aug '05 14:02
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    I've edited my post: missing preposition.

    "I'm of the opinion that the unconscious is a system of energy levels to to which archetypes enable access." If you want to experience this energy at a conscious level, that is.

    I'm of the opinion that the similarities that religions share are related to cultural and scientific similiarities among the countries who host this religion. The change from polytheism to monotheism as a form of religion might be connected to the fact that more things are now explainable by science and cultures have assimilated the fact that a single god is more feasible than a plethora of deities. Note than I can't remember any examples of cultures where a predominat monotheistic religion was substituted by a polytheistic one.

    I find this explanation for such changes in common traits between religions more likely than parallel changes in archetypes, without the ethnic mixing that they would require to be relatively widespread and unidirectional.

    As for archetypes in art, I find it also more likely to be of biological origin than archetypes defined as I think you are defining them.
  12. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    01 Aug '05 14:47
    Originally posted by Palynka
    I'm of the opinion that the similarities that religions share are related to cultural and scientific similiarities among the countries who host this religion. The change from polytheism to monotheism as a form of religion might be connected to the fact that more things are now explainable by science and cultures have assimilated the fact that a single god i ...[text shortened]... re likely to be of biological origin than archetypes defined as I think you are defining them.
    Assuming that archetypes exist (I don't know that Jung ever provided empirical proof!),

    the similarity between religions is structural: the Aztec religion would appear to be very different to the brand of Roman Catholicism practised by the conquistadors, but they include similar archetypes (overt or witheld 🙂 ). That's really the wrong way of putting it: better to say that in some respects, the archetypes are expressed similarly in both religions (vengeful bloodsucking chief god, a subordinate Mother Goddess). Today, in rural Mexico and other places, the religions have blended somewhat--ancestral Aztec deities become Catholic saints but retain their archetypal function. I wouldn't say it's a case of polytheism overcoming monotheism (though dogmatic protestants might well maintain that Catholicism is not monotheistic!) but rather a guerilla war of polytheism vs. monotheism, with polytheism slowly regaining the ground it lost to Quetzalcoatl-Cortez.

    Hinduism is the archetypal religion par excellence, very balanced: both monotheistic (one supreme creator god) and polytheistic (the various aspects of divinity each accorded their own form). As far as I know, it hasn't been replaced by anything yet.

    You need a Jungian to do a good archetypal analysis of any work of art. If you put it in that frame of reference, out they pop (the archetypes). Freud emphasised the biological side of things; Jung asserted a broader mind/body whole with an interesting collective unconscious aspect (I don't think Freud thought much of the collective unconscious). If you don't believe in archetypes, fair enough 🙂
  13. Joined
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    01 Aug '05 19:17
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    I believe that Jung wrote much about the term. He felt that it was made up of images, archetypes, etc that transcended time and resided in all cultures and individuals. It represented a deeper level of the unconscious. For example if I have a dream about my mother, it may represent my mother and the immediate memories and feelings I have about her. But she may represent a quality that all mothers may share in common.
    I absolutely agree with what you're saying here. For example, in the dream about the "mother", taken symbolically, the mother could mean the Archtype of the Mother symbolizing the maternal feminine creative matrix. another example would be the image of the vessel. the vessel is symbolic of the feminine as well. the vessel could symbolize the maternal feminine aspect.
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    01 Aug '05 19:24
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Absolutely. Let me give a couple of examples where the symbols and the symbolism are often over looked on the most basic level. I will pose it as a question as see what kind of response we get.

    What similarities do the cross and the star of David have in common?
    this is really interesting point because in Jung's thinking, the union of opposites played a huge part in the concept of wholeness. The union of male and female, dark and light , so your analogy of the cross was right on . you could look at the cross as a symbol of God with the horizontal line (aspect) representing the earthly physical realm and humanity and then consider the vertical line the spirtual aspect or God himself and then you have the union of these two worlds,aspects, and you get the cross, the symbol of the Christian Church and of salvation.
    God and Man united as one. this God Man is The Lord Jesus himself.
  15. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    02 Aug '05 08:231 edit
    Originally posted by kirksey957


    What similarities do the cross and the star of David have in common?
    Another similarity that they share (along with the pentagram, the swastika, etc, etc ) is dating back to Babylonian times. Not being specific to any denomination but illustrating a particular spiritual truth, they are truly archetypal symbols.

    "The symbol of the 4-sided swastika is an archetype for the rotations of time and conscousness - moving clockwise and counterwise - in upward or downward spirals - allowing souls to experience many levels of reality simultaneously".

    Skywalker Red, what are your views on the Hermaphrodite?





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