The cover of darkness

Originally posted by brobluto
I deny the order. It should be:

1. Give money
2. Go to church

That was an easy challenge 🙂

You got me there. 🙂

Originally posted by brobluto
I don't see the contradiction in what I said. Basing laws on morals and values doesn't mean they are "taught" by those institutions, just "enforced" by them.

What makes you think modern day policing is based
on Christian values? Can you provide examples please?

Personally I would rather a school showed a video of a convict,
stuck in his cell with wisened words or a beaten up little old lady
telling about the drug addicts that did her over rather than some jibberish
about hell.

Originally posted by Thequ1ck
What makes you think modern day policing is based
on Christian values? Can you provide examples please?

Personally I would rather a school showed a video of a convict,
stuck in his cell with wisened words or a beaten up little old lady
telling about the drug addicts that did her over rather than some jibberish
about hell.

Murder, stealing, fraud, etc. all share a common theme with the Ten Commandments. It's certainly not one to one. There are misdemeanors that really don't have a basis in the church, and then there are church laws that don't really influence the social laws.

Sorry, I would not want my kid to be taught morals by a convict. Maybe that's just me though.

Originally posted by brobluto
Murder, stealing, fraud, etc. all share a common theme with the Ten Commandments. It's certainly not one to one. There are misdemeanors that really don't have a basis in the church, and then there are church laws that don't really influence the social laws.

Sorry, I would not want my kid to be taught morals by a convict. Maybe that's just me though.

And do you truly believe there weren't laws against the three
commandments you mentioned before JC wagged his finger??

I find that somewhat frightening...

I didn't say that children should learn morals from convicts and victims
but I think it is a good way for them to understand consequence.
The consequence that religion speaks of is intangile and remote,
it's not effective.

Originally posted by Thequ1ck
And do you truly believe there weren't laws against the three
commandments you mentioned before JC wagged his finger??

I find that somewhat frightening...

I didn't say that children should learn morals from convicts and victims
but I think it is a good way for them to understand consequence.
The consequence that religion speaks of is intangile and remote,
it's not effective.

I never said that laws against those things weren't in existence. I said that they share common themes with the teachings of the church.

You did say "showed a video of a convict, stuck in his cell with wisened words" what would those wisened words be if not teaching what they should/shouldn't do? That's not consequence.

Death is intangible and remote, is that not an effective consequence?

I rarely heard the word "hell" or "devil" in my teachings from the church. The emphasis was usually on eternal salvation and being happy forever. We learned what our reward was for doing the right thing, not what our punishment was for not doing it. That's the right way to teach. You don't say to an employee , "I want you to do X, and if you don't, you're fired." You ask them to do it first, and if it's not right, you coach them along the way it should be done, and if not done right then, then you can start talking about termination as a consequence.

You don't start teaching a kid the way of the world and society by saying "don't do this or else you'll be in jail for the rest of your life". They can't possibly conceive the rest of their life yet. They know happiness when they play with their friends and sadness when they have to go home. You put in terms they can understand. "Do these things and you'll go to heaven. Heaven is like playing with your friends all day long. "

Originally posted by brobluto
I never said that laws against those things weren't in existence. I said that they share common themes with the teachings of the church.

You did say "showed a video of a convict, stuck in his cell with wisened words" what would those wisened words be if not teaching what they should/shouldn't do? That's not consequence.

Death is intangible and remote go to heaven. Heaven is like playing with your friends all day long. "

- Death is intangible and remote, is that not an effective consequence?
Death isn't intantigle and remote! it's around us 24/7 and pops up
whenever it darn well feels like it.
Does that really teach our children to live life to the full? No, it doesn't. It teaches
them to hide and shelter without understanding until they die and they receive reckoning.
Consequence yes. It is a consequence of a life wasted.

- We learned what our reward was for doing the right thing, not what our punishment was for not doing it.
Wouldn't you say that the punishment was implied e.g. do the right thing and go to heaven?

Come on man, we're not talking about 3 year olds or even 7 year olds here. We're talking about
people that are led to believe these things all their lives!!!

- "Do these things and you'll go to heaven. Heaven is like playing with your friends all day long. "
No it's not, that's a lie! And it's not like one day he/she's gonna wake to find you filling his/her
stocking at Christmas, he/she's going to be force fed this b******t the rest of their lives!

Your children will be faced with over a 1000 killings a year on television at some
stage, don't you think you should prepare them for what that really means in day-to-day
terms? No, you're quite happy for the church to tell them that the murderers won't go to heaven,
they won't get to play ball with their friends. At what stage of your childs development
do you anticipate this nonsense finally popping the fuses?
When they're out in Iraq or some other war, scooping their schoolfriends guts off the ground? What do you think their version of heaven and hell
will be then?

Originally posted by Thequ1ck
- Death is intangible and remote, is that not an effective consequence?
Death isn't intantigle and remote! it's around us 24/7 and pops up
whenever it darn well feels like it.
Does that really teach our children to live life to the full? No, it doesn't. It teaches
them to hide and shelter without understanding until they die and they receive reckoning. ...[text shortened]... the ground? What do you think their version of heaven and hell
will be then?

So, everyone who dies wasted their life?

Anyway, did you read the previous threads? We WERE talking about children and I said a couple times that the church provides the building blocks (not the entire upbringing of a child). Also, I would encourage my children when they are old eough to decided themselves what belief is right and I'll support them in their decision.

Originally posted by brobluto
So, everyone who dies wasted their life?

Anyway, did you read the previous threads? We WERE talking about children and I said a couple times that the church provides the building blocks (not the entire upbringing of a child). Also, I would encourage my children when they are old eough to decided themselves what belief is right and I'll support them in their decision.

No, everybody that spends their life preparing for death is not really
living their lives. Especially when their considerations for such an event
are based on an easily debasable superstition from an era that believed
the earth to be flat.

- I would encourage my children when they are old eough to decided themselves what belief is right.

You would encourage your children to accept a belief you mean?
Why do you feel that your children have to have a belief system?
Why can't they just be?

OK, I'm happy to continue this thread in the context of children but why
don't we move it to the stage of their development when they begin to
ask serious, intelligent questions?

What do you say to a child of 7 who's member of the family has just
died and he/she asks 'why?'

Originally posted by Thequ1ck
No, everybody that spends their life preparing for death is not really
living their lives. Especially when their considerations for such an event
are based on an easily debasable superstition from an era that believed
the earth to be flat.

- I would encourage my children when they are old eough to decided themselves what belief is right.

You would ...[text shortened]... o you say to a child of 7 who's member of the family has just
died and he/she asks 'why?'

Yes, I'm sorry, I cut that sentence short, I would encourage them to believe in something logical. I hope to raise my kids to be intelligent enough to ask questions and challenge themselves to find meaning. I also hope to instill in them the respect of something greater than themselves, but that something will be left up to them to decide what it is.

In terms of explaining death to a 7 year old, I don't know what I'd say to be perfectly honest with you. I'd probably research it online for possible explanations and take into account my relationship with the child. If it's some random child, I'd probably refer them back to a parent or relative. If it's my own, I'd probably try to put into context of what they can understand and comprehend. I really don't know, I don't have a kid yet.

Originally posted by brobluto
Yes, I'm sorry, I cut that sentence short, I would encourage them to believe in something logical. I hope to raise my kids to be intelligent enough to ask questions and challenge themselves to find meaning. I also hope to instill in them the respect of something greater than themselves, but that something will be left up to them to decide what it is.

In what they can understand and comprehend. I really don't know, I don't have a kid yet.

I would encourage them to believe in something logical...and challenge themselves to find meaning.

Well religion is the only institution that professes to contain logic and
meaning. So basically you're happy to steer your kids that way.

Tell me, do you have any pets? Have you ever seen an animal look
for 'meaning'?

Have you considered that the word 'meaning' is itself actually not solid
but abstract?

Originally posted by Thequ1ck
I would encourage them to believe in something logical...and challenge themselves to find meaning.

Well religion is the only institution that professes to contain logic and
meaning. So basically you're happy to steer your kids that way.

Tell me, do you have any pets? Have you ever seen an animal look
for 'meaning'?

Have you considered that the word 'meaning' is itself actually not solid
but abstract?

Who said that I want their logic and meaning to be institutionalized. I'm not practicing any religion yet my beliefs are logical and meaningful to me, and that's all that matters.

I've had pets, none right now. What do animals looking for meaning have to do with anything? For that matter, what does "meaning" being abstract vs solid have to do with anything?