1. Standard membersonship
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    18 Oct '16 12:171 edit
    There have been a number of threads, which I did find interesting, about morality. Where and How and What is it.

    I suspended my participation in some of those threads in order to do some more studying of both the Bible and philosophy. I am bias towards the word of God.

    I am not sure yet. But in this thread I will open up examination of the Apostle Paul's diagnosis of man whole moral problem. In no other section of the Bible, I think, is man so exposed as to what his moral problem is, and the God provided solution.

    Romans 7 and the first part of Romans 8 will be much of the basis for what i will write and defend here. I would hope that all interested parties would read the seventh chapter of Paul's epistle to the Romans. And the first part of Romans 8 would be excellent to read also.


    RAJK999, you especially are asked to READ Romans 7,8.
  2. Standard membersonship
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    18 Oct '16 12:21
    This thread may be useful to some of the thoughts going on on the addiction thread.
  3. Standard membersonship
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    18 Oct '16 12:27
    There are a number of laws mentioned in this portion of Romans. I am going to break down how we should discriminate between these.

    The law of the mind.
    The law of God
    The law of sin and death
    The law of the Spirit of life.

    Understanding how these laws interact is the key to understanding Paul analysis of man's problem in relation to himself and God, and the God given salvation to the problem.

    In addition there is "the law of the husband" which we will look at.
  4. Standard membersonship
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    19 Oct '16 08:122 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    There are a number of [b]laws mentioned in this portion of Romans. I am going to break down how we should discriminate between these.

    The law of the mind.
    The law of God
    The law of sin and death
    The law of the Spirit of life.

    Understanding how these laws interact is the key to understanding Paul analysis of man's problem in relation to ...[text shortened]... o the problem.

    In addition there is "the law of the husband" which we will look at.[/b]
    Romans 7:7-25 tells us about three of the laws we need to see:

    "What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! But I did not know sin except through the law, for neither did I know coveting, except the law had said, You shall not covet." (v.7)


    This is about the law of God which gives us knowledge of the sin that dwells in us. The law of God is outside of us and above us. And being aware of it sin is exposed and is identified.

    " But sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, worked out in me coveting of every kind; for without the law sin is dead." (v.8)


    Sin here is spoken of like an evil personified person or intelligent force. Sin here utilizes the law of God. And the law helps sin to work in us.

    God gave to law to expose sin more than to help us. This is because the law such as "You shall not covet" helped the sin nature to be exposed.

    We even have to say the good law of God assisted sin. For Paul says that sin "seizing the opportunity" worked out coveting of all kinds in Paul. It seems that the law of God came and awoke sin, which seized the opportunity to cause Paul to commit sins of all kinds.

    "And I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." (v.9)


    I take this to mean that when the commandment of the law of God came Paul lost control and became aware of how something in his being, rebelled against that law in sheer spite as a general principle. And he "died" feeling driven and helpless and "addicted"

    In this regard the law of God, outside of us; above us, making its demand upon man, does not help man. Rather is exposes the evil nature in us which seizes the opportunity to commit transgressions against that law.

    This law of God gives us the knowledge of the sin parasitically attached to our being. When the law came sin was revived, quickened, exposed, and made known. And we were made aware of how "dead" to obedience to God's commandments we are.
  5. Standard membersonship
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    19 Oct '16 08:28
    Above I explained how the law of God above man, outside of man, making its demand on man's obligation awoke the sin nature and exposed it. Through the law given by God man becomes aware of that evil personified force seizing opportunity to control us.

    And I was alive without the law once; but when the commandment came, sin revived in me.

    And the commandment, which was unto life, this very commandment was found in me to be unto death." (vs. 9,10)


    This is a sad irony of man's predicament since the fall of Adam. God's commandments assists sin in man. Rather sin, like an intelligent evil person, utilizes the commandments of God to react contrary on general principle.

    "For sin, seizing opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me." (v.11)


    We will see more and more that sin seems to act as a living thing in man. We see twice the sin took opportunity (v.8,11). We see that sin "deceived" (v.11) and that sin "killed" (v.11)

    We will see that to Paul's revelation sin is a personified evil person provoked and stimulated by the coming of the law of God. It takes opportunity ( the action of a person ), it deceives (the action of a person), it kills (the action of a person)

    Though sin is so opportunistic and wicked and being assisted by the commandment of God, the law itself is not sin. That law of God is holy and righteous and good.

    "So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good." (v.12)


    The Bible does not condemn the law of God as bad. It is holy and righteous and good. It is even "spiritual".

    " For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am fleshly, sold under sin." (v.14)
  6. Standard membersonship
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    19 Oct '16 08:56
    This thread will discuss:

    The law of God
    The law of sin and death
    The law of good in the mind
    The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

    So far I have talked only about "the law of God" which Paul also indicates when he speaks of "the commandment"

    "So then the law is holy and the commandment holy and righteous and good. (v.12)

    Did then that which is good become death to me? Absolutely not! But sin did, that it might be shown to be sin by working out death in me through that which is good,

    that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful." (vs.12,13)


    Of course everything in man's being thinks he ought to try to keep the commandments of God. Man thinks he is able. Man delights in trying to do so because he was created with a good law designed into his being. But since the fall of Adam it needs to be exposed that the original good man has been invaded by something called sin.

    Now we will go on to see the law of good in man's mind. This is that good nature that man was created with that wants to go along with the good commandments of God. But we cannot. Rather the law of God exposes a more powerful law of pulling us down into iniquity and transgressions against the absolute goodness of God's commandments.

    "For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am fleshly, sold under sin.(v.14)

    For what I work out, I do not acknowledgel for what I will, this I do not practice; but what I hate, this I do."


    We want to do what is good from God's law.
    We end up doing what we hate.
    What we will to do we do not work out.
    What we hate, this is what we end up working out.

    This chapter ends with a cry just before the solution of God's salvation in Christ is discussed:

    "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?" (v.24)


    Something of a parasitical nature has entered into the body of man, making man sold under sin and "fleshly". Sin is in what Paul describes as "the body of this DEATH". And that is the death of being unable to perform the good that the good law in his designed being knows but cannot carry out.

    Rather, what the sinner hates, THIS he carries out. The law of God exposes this automatic tendency to one degree or another in every human being.

    Man agrees that that the law of God is good.

    " For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man, (v.22)

    But I see a DIFFERENT LAW in my members, warring against the law of my mind and making me a captive to the law of sin which is in my members." (v.23)


    The phrase "a different law" identifies that multiple laws are being discussed here;

    The law of God above and outside of man making its OUGHTS and OBLIGATIONAL demands upon man. And a good law in man's design which agrees and delights to want to keep God's law.

    Here Paul explicitly tells that there is the law of his mind aside from the law of God.

    " For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man. (v.22)

    But I see a different law in my members, warring against THE LAW OF MY MIND and making me captive to the law of sin which is in my members." (v.23)



    Above him - "the law of God"
    Within his inner man - "the law of my mind"
    But warring against the law of his mind - "the law of sin which is in my members."

    We can see THREE of the four laws I mentioned by now.
  7. Standard membersonship
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    20 Oct '16 11:15
    So the age old argument "Is is man basically good or basically bad?"

    Some chide Christians and complain - "You just always say mankind is evil. We don't like this. We think higher of mankind than you pessimistic Christians do."

    Well, the biblical answer is not so simple. Man was created good, in fact "very good". But man received a foreign element into his physical body which damaged him.[/b] So man is now complicated. He is originally made 'very good" but has been damaged.

    Two of the four laws i am discussing reveal this complication.

    1.) The law of good according to man's original creation is still within every person.

    2.) The law of sin and of death is also in every person.

    These two laws are warring against each other.

    The law of God is outside of man and it is admired by the law of good in the mind which is inside of man. But though the law of good in the created man agrees with the law of God, a different and more powerful law called "the law of sin and of death" drags man down, drags man away, and drives man to transgress both the law of God outside and the law of good in the mind inside.

    "For we know that the law is spiritual but I am fleshly, sold under sin. (v.14)

    For what I work out, I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE; for what I will, this I DO NOT PRACTICE; but what I hate, this I DO." (v.15)


    Everyone WANTS to be good and right and righteous.
    But we do what we hate instead.

    We do not acknowledge what we do that we hate. We loath it. But we do not have always the life power to perform what we delight in to do - the good in our mind and even the good of the outside law of God.

    This has to ring some bells. I don't believe anyone reading this post can claim he or she does not have such experiences.
  8. Standard membersonship
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    22 Oct '16 10:295 edits
    The good news;

    " There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." (Rom. 8:1)


    What is the "condemnation" from which Paul says the Christian is freed?
    Most readers of this passage assume this is the condemnation of God's final judgment from which we are saved by justification by faith. But the context shows that this condemnation is the self condemnation of the previous chapter.

    Paul was under self condemnation when he exasperatingly cries out -

    "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?" (Rom. 7:24)


    He is trapped inside this body of sin. Sin in his fallen body wars against the good law in his mind. Sin in his fallen body drags him down and overcomes his attempt to keep the law of God outside and above him. Because the good law in his mind agrees with the law of God he attempts to keep the law of God.

    But a different and stronger evil law, the law of sin and of death in his members drags him down to do what he hates. So he feels wretched and defeated just like an addicted person who cannot control himself.

    But now Paul has found and EVEN STRONGER LAW. He has found a LAW as strong as the law of gravity. If he can tap into this stronger law, he is liberated and granted power to overcome the law of sin and death in his fallen Satan poisoned body.

    Wretchedness of self condemnation is overcome and replaced with REJOICING and VICTORY.

    Now let's look at 7:24 through 8:2 to get the impact.

    " Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? (7:24)

    Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin. (v.25)

    There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. (8:1)

    For the law of the Spirit of [divine] life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." (v.2)


    Jesus Christ in Paul now as the mighty Spirit of divine life so empowers him that he can overcome the law of sin. And he can be freed from the self condemnation of feeling wretched, defeated, overcome by evil. Praise the Lord.

    And we all can follow Paul's pioneering experience!
  9. Standard membersonship
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    22 Oct '16 12:572 edits
    I include a few other English renderings of the Greek in Romans 8:2

    English Standard Version
    For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

    Berean Study Bible
    For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

    Berean Literal Bible
    For the Law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the Law of sin and death.

    New American Standard Bible
    For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

    King James Bible
    For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    because the Spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
  10. Standard membersonship
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    22 Oct '16 12:595 edits
    I like this one because it confirms that "the Spirit of life" is a life giving Spirit as Paul says in First Corinthians 15:45b)

    Compare:

    NET Bible
    For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.


    Recovery Version (1 Cor. 15:45b)
    "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit"


    So what IS this more powerful law of the Spirit of life ? It is a PERSON.
    The Person of Jesus Christ can indwell the believer bringing with Himself a more power law of Himself; His very own victorious divine/human life. .

    That is a more powerful law than the law of sin.

    Paul cries out his need not for a thing or a lifeless principle, but for a PERSON -

    Wretched man that I am! WHO ... will deliver me from the body of this death? "


    The Wonderful divine WHO is a supernatural Person - the Son of God, Christ Jesus.
    With Jesus there is the more powerful LAW of His nature and life.
    The secret is to find and lay hold of a MORE POWERFUL law than that which works in the fallen body of death.

    "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?

    Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
  11. Standard membersonship
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    22 Oct '16 13:104 edits
    So then man is rather complicated.
    And the Christian is a bit more complicated.

    Man has the law of God above him and outside of him.
    Man has the law of his mind which is good and agrees with the law of God.
    Man has in his fallen body the law of sin and death.

    Now the Christian:

    The Christians is freed from the law of God which is above him.
    We will see why latter.
    The Christian still has a good law in his mind.
    The Christian has the law of sin and death working in the members of his fallen body.

    The Christian though has a MORE POWERFUL law in his spirit - the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus

    Romans 8 is now going to be all about how to tap into and unleash that more power and liberating "law of the Spirit of life" which FREES from self condemnation and from the law of sin in the fallen body.

    Let's take a look now at verse 1 through 3.

    "There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. (v1)

    For the law of the Spirit of [divine] life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. (v.2)

    For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh. " (v.3)
  12. Standard membersonship
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    22 Oct '16 13:211 edit
    have i experienced this more powerful law of the Spirit of life ?
    Yes I have.

    But I need to much more.
    I know of no Christians who do not need to deepen their experience of this salvation.
  13. Standard membersonship
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    22 Oct '16 13:22
    Come and argue with me Rajk999. Surely I must have stepped on your toes by now. I said the Christian is free from the law keeping of Moses.

    Am I right according to the New Testament ??
  14. Standard membersonship
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    24 Oct '16 14:411 edit
    The righteous requirement of the law is fulfill in those who walk according to the Spirit of Christ Who has come to indwell them.

    "That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Rom. 8:4)


    The New Testament walk is not one of trying to keep the law by the power of the religious flesh. It is to set the mind on the human spirit where the Spirit of Christ has come, and to WALK according to that indwelling Person .

    Then, by walking according to that indwelling Person the requirement of the law if fulfilled. So says the oracles of God.

    In fact the law was holy, just, good, and spiritual, but made WEAK through the fallen flesh.

    "For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh ..." (8:3a)
  15. Standard membersonship
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    25 Oct '16 10:345 edits
    Rajk999 wrote to me:

    What you believe is a grossly twisted interpretation of the writings of Paul, and the reason why you choose to believe it is that you foolishly think that Paul is giving you a way to escape the commandments of Jesus Christ, because you do not care to follow it. For you following Christ is too hard, too legalistic and requires you to be too generous to the poor and needy.



    In other words you are saying that I say "Let us continue to sin that grace may abound".

    "What then shall we say? Should we continue to sin that grace may abound?

    Absolutely not! ..." (See Romans 6:1,2a)


    Your accusation is that I answer the question Paul poses in the affirmative. Your accuse me of teaching -

    "Yes. We Christians should continue to sin that God's grace may abound."

    But you lie. I say absolutely with Paul, the same as I am taught by the book of Romans.

    " ... Should we continue to sin that grace may abound ? (Rom. 6:1,2)

    Absolutely NOT! We who have died to sin, how shall we still live in it ?


    This post I am moving over as a continuation of the thread on "The Diagnosis of Romans 7,8"

    And I may extend it here as well to work my reply into "The City of Water"
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