1. Joined
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    22 Mar '11 20:58
    Spiritual movements have a special characteristic that is often overlooked by their adherents after the movement has become an ideology.

    The central founding tenets of an spiritual movement are often brought together by an influential thinker and then may be modified by others before (or as) they are adopted by a community of faithful. The codification of the tenets can take some time.

    Successful spiritual movements can morph into institutionalized ideologies, due to their need to institutionalize and maintain the integrity of the codification of the central founding tenets.

    Some ideological institutions come to demand that their adherents expand and defend the ideology, with varying degrees of vigor. Some don't demand this.

    Guess which ones survive? The ones who call for vigorous expansion and defense. (How many Shakers do you know?)

    The successful methods of survival and growth become enshrined in their holy books in ways that can distort or even negate their central founding tenets of their spiritual founders. Words can even be put in the mouths of these founders.

    So it seems to me that the major ideologies of the world are shaped more by their survival mechanisms than their adherents admit or even realize.

    Perhaps this is one reason that so many people who seek spiritual guidance find established religions to have such a paucity of spiritual value.
  2. Standard memberDasa
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    22 Mar '11 21:18
    Originally posted by JS357
    Spiritual movements have a special characteristic that is often overlooked by their adherents after the movement has become an ideology.

    The central founding tenets of an spiritual movement are often brought together by an influential thinker and then may be modified by others before (or as) they are adopted by a community of faithful. The codification of t ...[text shortened]... o seek spiritual guidance find established religions to have such a paucity of spiritual value.
    Your comments are true when they are concerned with current fabricated false religions.

    Vedanta is not current, and in fact it is eternal and ever existing.

    Vedanta is coming to us in the eternal language of Sanskrit, which is a perfect spiritual language.

    Vedanta is knowledge coming from the Personality of Godhead.

    Fabricated religion is coming from conditioned mundane personalities.

    Vedanta is true yesterday, today and tomorrow, for it is unchanging truth.

    Current fabricated religion presents error.

    Vedanta does not present error.

    Your uninformed generalizations are purposely misleading.
  3. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    22 Mar '11 21:271 edit
    Originally posted by JS357
    Spiritual movements have a special characteristic that is often overlooked by their adherents after the movement has become an ideology.

    The central founding tenets of an spiritual movement are often brought together by an influential thinker and then may be modified by others before (or as) they are adopted by a community of faithful. The codification of t o seek spiritual guidance find established religions to have such a paucity of spiritual value.
    In order for a spiritual movement to coalesce and ossify into an ideology, it needs to be codified into a 'holy book.' Once it degrades from a 'practice' based movement into a 'text' based one, this process is inevitable. Its adherents become more interested in arguing about the correct interpretation of the text than with the movement's spiritual aims.

    Consider this: It is widely known that the books of the New Testament weren't written until decades after Jesus' death. Do you think this was intentional, or not? I don't know, of course, but it would not surprise me to find out that they weren't written down during Jesus' lifetime, because he didn't want them written down. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that Jesus didn't want his sayings committed to print because he didn't want them to ossify into a rigid, text based system of belief, preferring instead that they remain a basic and open ended guideline.
  4. Joined
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    22 Mar '11 23:14
    Originally posted by Dasa
    Your comments are true when they are concerned with current fabricated false religions.

    Vedanta is not current, and in fact it is eternal and ever existing.

    Vedanta is coming to us in the eternal language of Sanskrit, which is a perfect spiritual language.

    Vedanta is knowledge coming from the Personality of Godhead.

    Fabricated religion is coming fro ...[text shortened]...

    Vedanta does not present error.

    Your uninformed generalizations are purposely misleading.
    That was too easy. Your vigorous defense and retaliatory attack only confirm my thesis.
  5. In your face
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    22 Mar '11 23:52
    Originally posted by JS357
    That was too easy. Your vigorous defense and retaliatory attack only confirm my thesis.
    It seems that you are proposing that since he disagreed with you, then this proves your point. Had he not argued the toss then your argument would have prevailed without anyone to disagree with it. Hmmmm, a win win situation for you. Was part of your initial argument not just a trap just to prove a point?
  6. Account suspended
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    22 Mar '11 23:545 edits
    Originally posted by rwingett
    In order for a spiritual movement to coalesce and ossify into an ideology, it needs to be codified into a 'holy book.' Once it degrades from a 'practice' based movement into a 'text' based one, this process is inevitable. Its adherents become more interested in arguing about the correct interpretation of the text than with the movement's spiritual aims.

    of belief, preferring instead that they remain a basic and open ended guideline.
    Pure and utter speculation!!. Clearly the first century Christians were quite adept at using the Hebrew scriptures to present their case, as was Christ himself, the idea that the writing was deliberately postponed has to be one the the most far fetched ideas i think i have read on the forum. Christianity was never as bland as an all encompassing, all inclusive, open ended guideline, it was exclusive and dynamic, Christ preached exclusively to Jews with one or two notable exceptions and only after qualification, could one become a Christian. Early writings were made with specific purposes in mind, to reach out to the Hellenistic Jews for example the Septuagint was produced, Paul wrote extensively with specifics in mind, to the Romans, to the Hebrews, some of which were in circulation even in his own time as I know you are aware. Clearly writing arose as a necessity as congregations grew and expanded.
  7. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    23 Mar '11 00:16
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Pure and utter speculation!!. Clearly the first century Christians were quite adept at using the Hebrew scriptures to present their case, as was Christ himself, the idea that the writing was deliberately postponed has to be one the the most far fetched ideas i think i have read on the forum. Christianity was never as bland as an all encompassing, a ...[text shortened]... s I know you are aware. Clearly writing arose as a necessity as congregations grew and expanded.
    Of course it's speculation. There's no way to know for sure why the Christians didn't write their stuff down for decades. It is certain that they could have if they wanted to. So why didn't Jesus commission a scribe to follow him around? Or why weren't his sayings compiled immediately after his death for wide distribution? It is within the realm of possibility that Jesus was against his sayings degenerating into a rigid, text based dogma.

    It is also possible, of course, that since the earliest Christians expected the Kingdom to come very soon, that it simply wasn't necessary. Paul, and others, began to write down their foggy recollections of what they'd heard about Jesus only after it became apparent that the Kingdom wasn't coming any time soon.
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    23 Mar '11 00:251 edit
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Of course it's speculation. There's no way to know for sure why the Christians didn't write their stuff down for decades. It is certain that they could have if they wanted to. So why didn't Jesus commission a scribe to follow him around? Or why weren't his sayings compiled immediately after his death for wide distribution? It is within the realm of possibil about Jesus only after it became apparent that the Kingdom wasn't coming any time soon.
    There were extant copies of the Hebrew scriptures in every Jewish temple, there would be no need to write scriptures down until the need arose, the early Christians made extensive use of these Hebrew texts. Clearly Christ taught be example, as did Paul, the apostles themselves having, 'filled Jerusalem', with the teaching. One must remember that books were expensive to produce, persecution was severe at times, people were struggling to survive let alone produce books. Foggy recollections? I think travelling up to Jerusalem to be with Peter, John and James, he would have heard more than, foggy recollections.
  9. Standard memberKellyJay
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    23 Mar '11 01:07
    Originally posted by JS357
    Spiritual movements have a special characteristic that is often overlooked by their adherents after the movement has become an ideology.

    The central founding tenets of an spiritual movement are often brought together by an influential thinker and then may be modified by others before (or as) they are adopted by a community of faithful. The codification of t ...[text shortened]... o seek spiritual guidance find established religions to have such a paucity of spiritual value.
    If we have nothing but ideas that bind us than teaching alone is all that is required,
    so a proper education would produce nothing but well educated good people. If we
    have nothing but a proper label to call ourselves by, joining any group if it is the
    right one would be enough. If all that is required is to follow the Law, whatever law
    that is required, than doing what is right and not doing what is wrong is enough. If
    you are broken due to your nature, you are in need of a Savior.

    A person broken with a sinful nature needs saved not only from the sins they have
    done, but they need restored and healed within. A relationship with God in Christ
    Jesus not a set of must do and must avoid rules can do that!

    Movements if they are not toward God but instead toward some set of 'rules/laws'
    or another flawed person will always in the end, become nothing but an ideology.
    Kelly
  10. Joined
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    23 Mar '11 03:00
    Originally posted by jimslyp69
    It seems that you are proposing that since he disagreed with you, then this proves your point. Had he not argued the toss then your argument would have prevailed without anyone to disagree with it. Hmmmm, a win win situation for you. Was part of your initial argument not just a trap just to prove a point?
    Arguments do not prevail on account of a lack of rebuttal. It is not his disagreement on this one point alone, but his many other aggressive/defensive stances, and his retaliatory attack to boot. If it was a trap that proved a point, so be it.
  11. Joined
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    24 Mar '11 16:57
    Originally posted by Dasa
    Your comments are true when they are concerned with current fabricated false religions.

    Vedanta is not current, and in fact it is eternal and ever existing.

    Vedanta is coming to us in the eternal language of Sanskrit, which is a perfect spiritual language.

    Vedanta is knowledge coming from the Personality of Godhead.

    Fabricated religion is coming fro ...[text shortened]...

    Vedanta does not present error.

    Your uninformed generalizations are purposely misleading.
  12. Joined
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    24 Mar '11 17:14
    Originally posted by JS357
    Spiritual movements have a special characteristic that is often overlooked by their adherents after the movement has become an ideology.

    The central founding tenets of an spiritual movement are often brought together by an influential thinker and then may be modified by others before (or as) they are adopted by a community of faithful. The codification of t ...[text shortened]... o seek spiritual guidance find established religions to have such a paucity of spiritual value.
    "So it seems to me that the major ideologies of the world are shaped more by their survival mechanisms than their adherents admit or even realize. "

    Revisiting the above for Hinduism:

    One survival mechanism for Hinduism has been to carry forward the traditions of polytheism. In his book God Against the Gods, Johnathon Kirsch makes the case for polytheistic religions being less prone to inflict offensive violence on those whose beliefs differ from theirs. But it would be interesting to see if this relative pacifism is characteristic of Hindus who emphasize monotheistic aspects of Hinduism.
  13. Standard memberRJHinds
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    25 Mar '11 02:00
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    If we have nothing but ideas that bind us than teaching alone is all that is required, so a proper education would produce nothing but well educated good people...If you are broken due to your nature, you are in need of a Savior.
    A person broken with a sinful nature needs saved not only from the sins they have
    done, but they need restored and healed withi ...[text shortened]... laws'
    or another flawed person will always in the end, become nothing but an ideology.
    Kelly
    Well said KellyJay.
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    25 Mar '11 02:12
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Of course it's speculation. There's no way to know for sure why the Christians didn't write their stuff down for decades. It is certain that they could have if they wanted to. So why didn't Jesus commission a scribe to follow him around? Or why weren't his sayings compiled immediately after his death for wide distribution? It is within the realm of possibil ...[text shortened]... about Jesus only after it became apparent that the Kingdom wasn't coming any time soon.
    It is not a known fact that Christians did not write anything
    down for decades. This is speculation.
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