The "free gift"

@rajk999 said
I dont think that matters or matters very little. What is critical is that you clearly [judging from you posts over the years], hold the teachings of Jesus Christ in high regard, being a model for righteous living. This and this alone, provided you are able to live the life Jesus said, places you miles above church Christians who belittle the teachings of Christ as works salvation, and have cast aside these commandments.

If FMF no longer sees the significance of Christ's death which presumably encompasses things like the resurrection and atonement, how can that (scripturally speaking) be said not to matter or matter very little?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
If FMF no longer sees the significance of Christ's death which presumably encompasses things like the resurrection and atonement, how can that (scripturally speaking) be said not to matter or matter very little?

Its a simple matter... nowhere did Jesus ever tell anyone that they need to understand or see the significance of his resurrection and atonement. If he did then please quote the references. In fact, not even the disciples who have a guaranteed place in the Kingdom of God, all understand or believe in His death or resurrection. This is not a requirement for eternal life.

-Removed-

Didn't Rajk999 answer this question on page 1?

He said he had no opinion on this matter but suggested you look at Matthew 25:34-36 and Galatians 5:19-21. He went on to say: "These two passages give some pretty good answers to your question".

@rajk999 said
Its a simple matter... nowhere did Jesus ever tell anyone that they need to understand or see the significance of his resurrection and atonement. If he did then please quote the references. In fact, not even the disciples who have a guaranteed place in the Kingdom of God, all understand or believe in His death or resurrection. This is not a requirement for eternal life.

It's a little odd to think someone could be saved through Jesus while simultaneously not seeing anything significant in the resurrection or atonement.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.' (John 3:16)

Surely this belief encompasses not only his teachings but also who He was and the sacrifice he made for mankind?

-Removed-

Your question was answered clearly by Jesus Christ. Only a man whose heart is far from Christ will not see the answer. Interrestingly a professed unbeliever like FMF is seeing the answer in the writings of Christ. Like Jesus said .. many will come from all over the world and enter the Kingdom of God, but you yourselves [the ones professing faith], will be cast out.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
It's a little odd to think someone could be saved through Jesus while simultaneously not seeing anything significant in the resurrection or atonement.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.' (John 3:16)

Surely this belief encompasses not only his teachings but also who He was and the sacrifice he made for mankind?

All of mankind is saved and justified by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I quoted the passage already where Paul said that.

I asked for you to show where JESUS PREACHED that doctrine you are promoting. Obviously there are no references otherwise you would have provided one.

So the question now becomes ... is it the case that those people who heard, listened and believed in what Jesus preached [many thousands], are not saved and therefore cannot enter the Kingdom of God?

-Removed-

Rajk999 gave you two Bible references that answered your question. What "research" are you referring to?

@rajk999 said
All of mankind is saved and justified by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I quoted the passage already where Paul said that.

I asked for you to show where JESUS PREACHED that doctrine you are promoting. Obviously there are no references otherwise you would have provided one.

So the question now becomes ... is it the case that those people who heard, liste ...[text shortened]... what Jesus preached [many thousands], are not saved and therefore cannot enter the Kingdom of God?

John 11:25-26:

"I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die."

Here we have Jesus revealing Himself as the resurrection and the life. Believing in Him is not just a case of believing in his words but believing in who He was and what he had done.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
John 11:25-26:

"I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die."

Here we have Jesus revealing Himself as the resurrection and the life. Believing in Him is not just a case of believing in his words but believing in who He was and what he had done.

Is that the best you got?

First of all, there is nothing there about believing in his death and resurrection. In fact all these people were shocked when Jesus was crucified, so nobody at that time knew or believed in any death and resurrection. Jesus is simply pointing out that he is going to raise certain people for eternal life and that death means nothing.

Also, Jesus is here in John 11:25-26, having a private one on one conversation with Martha. Would you say that this comment was designed to lay down some principle which you claim ALL people must believe? If so then it is misplaced. He would have made this point clear in an event like the Sermon on the Mount where he preached to many thousands. But he said nothing of the kind.

Try again.

@rajk999 said
Is that the best you got?

First of all, there is nothing there about believing in his death and resurrection. In fact all these people were shocked when Jesus was crucified, so nobody at that time knew or believed in any death and resurrection. Jesus is simply pointing out that he is going to raise certain people for eternal life and that death means nothing.

Also, Jes ...[text shortened]... mon on the Mount where he preached to many thousands. But he said nothing of the kind.

Try again.

I thought it was pretty good. Okay, how about 1 Peter 1:21

'who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.'


Jesus does not merely say that he will bring about the resurrection or that he will be the cause of the resurrection but something much stronger: I am the resurrection and the life. Resurrection from the dead and genuine eternal life in fellowship with God are so closely tied to Jesus that they are embodied in him and can be found only in relationship to him. Therefore “believes in me” implies personal trust in Christ.

www.crossway.org/articles/10-key-bibles-verses-on-death-and-resurrection/

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I thought it was pretty good. Okay, how about 1 Peter 1:21

'who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.'


Jesus does not merely say that he will bring about the resurrection or that he will be the cause of the resurrection but something much stronger: I am the resurrection and t ...[text shortened]... sonal trust in Christ.

www.crossway.org/articles/10-key-bibles-verses-on-death-and-resurrection/

Irrelevant. Lets stay on point here. The issue is about the teachings of Jesus Christ, not Paul or any other Apostle. I am claiming that Jesus did not preach to the many thousands of people who heard him that believing that he died and was resurrected was critical for one to be saved and therefore get eternal life.

I am making this distinction because the teachings of Christ, trumps everything else said by any other preacher about eternal life. Jesus was asked point blank questions about what is required for eternal life in the Kingdom of God and the answer was always the same, love God and your neighbour as yourself, which he explained in great detail... nothing about believing in death and resurrection.

The reason for this apparent omission by Jesus is obvious. Works trumps Faith, so Jesus focused on works and explained what people needed to do and the lifestyle that needed to be lived to get eternal life.

@rajk999 said
Works trumps Faith, so Jesus focused on works and explained what people needed to do and the lifestyle that needed to be lived to get eternal life.

To be clear, you totally reject passages like Ephesians 2:8-9?

'God's Word says that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and not by our own efforts or works.'


Jesus Himself said, 'Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

How is that a case of works trumping faith?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
To be clear, you totally reject passages like Ephesians 2:8-9?

'God's Word says that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and not by our own efforts or works.'


Jesus Himself said, 'Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

How is that a case of works trumping faith?

All the righteous people prior Paul, did not know they were saved by grace through faith in Christ. Right?

Clearly that piece of knowledge is of no real value to ones eternal life. That is why Jesus did not bother to say it.