1. Hmmm . . .
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    19 May '13 15:071 edit
    At the bottom of this post are some links to sites discussing the Dunning-Kruger effect—where people who are relatively less competent/knowledgeable about a subject tend to overestimate their own knowledge/competence, while the more knowledgeable/competent tend to underestimate that. Apparently, some education in logic and critical thinking can alleviate this tendency.

    [I realize that people on this site often argue (and argue hard) as part of the learning process, and are thus quite willing to be shown that they are wrong. At least that has been the history over the years. And so the fact that one mounts an argument, even in an area where they have little expertise, is not necessarily a sign of the D-K effect in action.]

    With that said, I came across this quote from Mark Twain:

    “Education is the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty.” [https://www.facebook.com/pages/Dunning-Kruger-Effect/270951763040589]

    Twain was, of course, a humorist. But I wonder if some people do not find uncertainty to be generally frightening and miserable? [Call that an “existential uncertainty”?] And, at least in some cases, sufficiently frightening and miserable as to lead to denial and self-deception—in overestimating one’s sureness and certainty?

    —Note: I am really only interested in those “problem cases”; no doubt that uncertainty can be frightening in some cases without leading to any general existential “malaise”, or denial.

    On the other hand, it seems to me that uncertainty can be freeing as well as challenging. It can spur ongoing inquiry, as well as continuing self-examination. And embracing “the freedom of uncertainty” can be a joyous affair.

    —Note: I’m posting this on this forum, because it has been since its inception the de facto philosophical forum, as well as spiritual/religious discussion.

    ____________________________________________________________________


    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect:

    "The skills needed to produce logically sound arguments, for instance, are the same skills that are necessary to recognize when a logically sound argument has been made. Thus, if people lack the skills to produce correct answers, they are also cursed with an inability to know when their answers, or anyone else's, are right or wrong. They cannot recognize their responses as mistaken, or other people's responses as superior to their own."

    And from http://reasonandlogic.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/dunning-kruger/:

    “The ideal critical thinker is habitually inquisitive, well-informed, trustful of reason, open-minded, flexible, fair-minded in evaluation, honest in facing personal biases, prudent in making judgments, willing to reconsider, clear about issues, orderly in complex matters, diligent in seeking relevant information, reasonable in the selection of criteria, focused in inquiry, and persistent in seeking results which are as precise as the subject and the circumstances of inquiry permit.”

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolved-primate/201006/when-ignorance-begets-confidence-the-classic-dunning-kruger-effect

    http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/overestimate.aspx
  2. Standard memberRemoved
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    19 May '13 16:42
    Originally posted by vistesd
    At the bottom of this post are some links to sites discussing the Dunning-Kruger effect—where people who are relatively less competent/knowledgeable about a subject tend to overestimate their own knowledge/competence, while the more knowledgeable/competent tend to underestimate that. Apparently, some education in logic and critical thinking can alleviate th ...[text shortened]... ence-the-classic-dunning-kruger-effect

    http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/overestimate.aspx
    Excellent post. I don't know under what category I fall. I am neither learned nor frightened. You are most polite, and I admire this quality you have.
    What bothers me most is how to articulate experience without being looked upon as being a lunatic.
    I have studied the bible for many years. I am aware that many think it is nonsense, forgeries, inaccurate, etc.
    But having said that, how do I articulate, put into words, answered prayers, most of the time immediately? Sometimes before I am finished praying?
    And this, just from trusting what God has said in this bible of mine.
    I have had such a relationship with God and the Lord Jesus for so many years, and read and listen to folks telling me it is not real. Sometimes rudely, sometimes politely and kindly.
    Nevertheless, your thread is kind, but it is just another way of looking down on those who do not possess the intellect of some on this forum.
    My little bible says God chose the weak things of this world...
    1 Cor 1:27-30
    But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30
    NKJV
  3. Dublin Ireland
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    19 May '13 19:53
    For all your religious fervour, you may rant and rave.
    But I am here to tell you, there is nothing beyond the grave.
    Try to help one another while on this earth you dwell,
    for there is nothing later, after your funeral bell.
  4. Standard memberRemoved
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    19 May '13 23:50
    Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
    For all your religious fervour, you may rant and rave.
    But I am here to tell you, there is nothing beyond the grave.
    Try to help one another while on this earth you dwell,
    for there is nothing later, after your funeral bell.
    and you know this because.....?
  5. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Infidel
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    20 May '13 00:06
    Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
    For all your religious fervour, you may rant and rave.
    But I am here to tell you, there is nothing beyond the grave.
    Try to help one another while on this earth you dwell,
    for there is nothing later, after your funeral bell.
    Are you suggesting that after death we are dead?

    Preposterous!!!!
  6. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    20 May '13 00:37
    Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
    For all your religious fervour, you may rant and rave.
    But I am here to tell you, there is nothing beyond the grave.
    Try to help one another while on this earth you dwell,
    for there is nothing later, after your funeral bell.
    But who is ranting and raving? Is it sunhouse, wolfgang, and you?

    The instructor
  7. Joined
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    20 May '13 01:46
    Originally posted by vistesd
    At the bottom of this post are some links to sites discussing the Dunning-Kruger effect—where people who are relatively less competent/knowledgeable about a subject tend to overestimate their own knowledge/competence, while the more knowledgeable/competent tend to underestimate that. Apparently, some education in logic and critical thinking can alleviate th ...[text shortened]... ence-the-classic-dunning-kruger-effect

    http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/overestimate.aspx
    How would you rate Jesus?
  8. Hmmm . . .
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    20 May '13 03:35
    Originally posted by whodey
    How would you rate Jesus?
    More on point to the thread topic: how do you rate whodey?
  9. Melbourne, Australia
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    20 May '13 03:53
    Thanks visted, and warm greetings. Much appreciated.

    "He who does not expect will not find out the unexpected, for it is trackless and unexplored." Heraclitus

    When doubt builds to a fever pitch and we are all fear,
    seeking frantically for a way out, the way in can suddenly appear. Mu!
  10. Melbourne, Australia
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    20 May '13 04:221 edit
    The uncertainty of life frightens some people into more comfortable, reassuring gatherings where the definite "answer" for all the unknowns is offered.
    Neither reductionist science nor fundamentalist religion like uncertainty and both rush to put everything into its "place" far too quickly, and far too definitely. Doubt is allowed to freely 'hang around' in mature religion and open, searching science.
  11. Standard memberRJHinds
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    20 May '13 05:13
    Originally posted by Taoman
    The uncertainty of life frightens some people into more comfortable, reassuring gatherings where the definite "answer" for all the unknowns is offered.
    Neither reductionist science nor fundamentalist religion like uncertainty and both rush to put everything into its "place" far too quickly, and far too definitely. Doubt is allowed to freely 'hang around' in mature religion and open, searching science.
    There are doubts in Christianity. There are also mysteries in Christianity.

    http://www.reasonablefaith.org/christian-doubt

    http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2012/08/the-five-great-mysteries-in-the-christian-faith/

    The Instructor
  12. Joined
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    20 May '13 12:011 edit
    Originally posted by vistesd
    More on point to the thread topic: how do you rate whodey?
    Needing to be more like Jesus.

    So I ask again, how do you rate Jesus? Do you think that my goal to be more like Jesus askew?
  13. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    20 May '13 13:28
    Originally posted by vistesd
    At the bottom of this post are some links to sites discussing the Dunning-Kruger effect—where people who are relatively less competent/knowledgeable about a subject tend to overestimate their own knowledge/competence, while the more knowledgeable/competent tend to underestimate that. Apparently, some education in logic and critical thinking can alleviate th ...[text shortened]... ence-the-classic-dunning-kruger-effect

    http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/overestimate.aspx
    The danger here, it seems to me, is conflating expertise with critical thinking. More often than not, the two are at loggerheads with one another. As expertise tends to narrow ones responses to those that are endorsed by the system in which one has gained expertise, critical thinking is diminished. The greater the level of "expertise", the narrower the scope for critical thinking. To put it more simply, if one is equipped with only a hammer, all problems start to look like nails.

    A excessive dependence on "experts", specialists and technocrats does not improve the decision making ability of a society. It merely succeeds in establishing a world that is increasingly dependent upon their technical expertise.

    We have the greatest number of experts and specialists that the world has ever seen, but this reductionist approach to problem solving leaves us no better off while removing more and more people from the decision making process. The Amish, for example, stop formal education after the 8th grade. But they have managed to create a more just world than all the experts combined.
  14. SubscriberSuzianne
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    20 May '13 23:21
    Originally posted by rwingett
    We have the greatest number of experts and specialists that the world has ever seen, but this reductionist approach to problem solving leaves us no better off while removing more and more people from the decision making process. The Amish, for example, stop formal education after the 8th grade. But they have managed to create a more just world than all the experts combined.
    I think much of the success of the Amish has to be that they put much value, as should we all, in informal education.

    Just because they stop formal education after the 8th grade doesn't mean that they stop learning. Most choose a life path, such as farming, or blacksmithing, and dedicate their entire lives to learning their craft.
  15. Dublin Ireland
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    20 May '13 23:29
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    I think much of the success of the Amish has to be that they put much value, as should we all, in informal education.

    Just because they stop formal education after the 8th grade doesn't mean that they stop learning. Most choose a life path, such as farming, or blacksmithing, and dedicate their entire lives to learning their craft.
    How would the Amish rate R J pale green horse Hinds?


    😕
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