1. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
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    27 May '13 12:485 edits
    Hagar the mother of Ishmael a son of Abraham, I think, drummed into his little head that he was the prophet's child. And he was.

    Without quoting let me condense what happened. God promised Abraham that he would have a son. This was accompanied with other grand promises all associated with Abraham's promised son. Abraham believed the supernatural God's promise.

    Yet year after year Abram (as he was then called) and his beautiful wife Saria (Sarah latter called) were not able to have children. Doubt began to enter in as they advanced in years. A couple of methods Abram devised, I think, to "help" God fulfill His promise. God honored none of them and the couple continued to be childless.

    It is a very touching story in Genesis. At one point God even commands Abram to pray for some king's household where the women's wombs have all be shut up by God. And God opens their wombs again so that they can bare children. In other words God gives Abraham the faith to pray effectively for other barren women but yet gets no answer to his own prayer (yet) for his promised child.

    At a certain point Sarah (I'll call her by default) comes up with the idea that they will "help" God Almighty keep his promise by giving her maidservant Hagar the Egyptian to be wife to Abraham. Abraham goes along and Abraham and Hagar have a child.

    At this point we have 13 year apparent silence in which God does not appear or speak to Abraham. That's the way it reads to some. It is as if God lets 13 years pass to see what will come of Abraham and Sarah's scheme to "help" the Almighty.

    It doesn't work out well. Hagar, understandably begins to get an attitude. Maybe something like "Ummm, Excuse me my mistress Sarah, but who do you think you are anyway? I bore the prophet Abraham a son as God promised. Move over please ." Ishmael picks up on the attitude too after the miracle child Isaac is born of his mother Sarah.

    There is some tension and Sarah demands that Hagar and her son vacate the premises. I mean she wants to totally get rid of her slave and the child. This scheme did not work out nearly as well as they imagined.

    Now I may get the sequence fuzzy here. Bible lovers will just have to go check me. God appears to Abraham after this 13 year silence and makes the promise again telling Abraham that Ishmael is the result of his own human scheme and not the result of God's ability. Nothing is too hard for God. It doesn't matter that he's now 100 years old. God Almighty can fulfill His promise without his natural human scheming. Eventually the miracle child Isaac is born.

    Now I come to the point of this thread though there is a lot more to the story.

    God does bless the cast out Hagar and Ishmael. God pronounces some prophetic words over Ishmael some of which seem positive and some of which might be negative.

    It is my opinion that Hagar the Egyptian woman made SURE that her baby boy understood that HE was a son of the prophet Abraham. Using my imagination I can hear her telling little Ishmael -

    "Son, don't you EVER forget it. Your father was the prophet Abraham. And I was your mother. I gave birth to you the son of the prophet Abraham. You were special to God. You were special to Abraham. I want you never to forget it as long as you live. Long after I die you remember and tell your kids after you - You were the child of the great prophet Abraham."

    "The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world."

    I could be wrong. And I am not a historian. I'm just a extensive Bible student. I think maybe the strong enfluence of Hagar the mother of Ishmael about her bearing a prophetic child by Abraham she passed on to that early progenitor of Arab peoples.

    Both Jews and Arabs have in their ethnic psyche this controversy going back to Abraham / Hagar = Ishmael, Abraham / Sarah = Isaac dispute.

    Had Abraham and Sarah not tried to "help" the all powerful God with a manmade scheme maybe things would have been different. Then again probably something else would have been an issue.

    I expect some to respond saying the whole thing is God's fault.
    I think God is right. But they may be right here too.
    The concept of a bungling and mistake prone Ultimate Governor of the universe is not realistic to me. Whoever transcends God and can correct God must be God themelves. And there is only one God so the cosmic buck of what is ultimately just must end with Him.
  2. Standard memberRBHILL
    Acts 13:48
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    27 May '13 16:52
    Originally posted by sonship
    Hagar the mother of Ishmael a son of Abraham, I think, drummed into his little head that he was the prophet's child. And he was.

    Without quoting let me condense what happened. God promised Abraham that he would have a son. This was accompanied with other grand promises all associated with Abraham's promised son. Abraham believed the supernatural God's pr ...[text shortened]... od so the cosmic buck of what is ultimately just must end with Him.
    Cool insight on the big problem of the past. A 4,000 year problem about. Can't the Arabs just get over it?
  3. SubscriberSuzianne
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    27 May '13 22:14
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    Cool insight on the big problem of the past. A 4,000 year problem about. Can't the Arabs just get over it?
    It's a cultural difference, really. Arabs place great meaning on being the first-born son. They feel that Ishmael should have received the blessing from Abraham, not Isaac, simply due to his being the first-born son. They feel they got conned out of their birthright. This is a thing not to be 'gotten over' lightly.
  4. Dublin Ireland
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    27 May '13 22:41
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    It's a cultural difference, really. Arabs place great meaning on being the first-born son. They feel that Ishmael should have received the blessing from Abraham, not Isaac, simply due to his being the first-born son. They feel they got conned out of their birthright. This is a thing not to be 'gotten over' lightly.
    I agree with you entirely Suzianne. You are correct.

    And by the way, While I am here, I am sorry if I gave the impression
    that all Muslims should be burned at the stake or bombed out of their
    homes. My thread "Death to all Muslims" has been removed by the
    Administration and I do agree with the reasons they posted to me in a
    personal message that it was not appropriate and it was the wrong
    direction for me to go and that it was inflammatory and unnecessary.

    I am normally a very tolerant individual and do not normally go on
    such a rant. I would like to apologise to Taoman and others for any
    offense given.
  5. Standard memberRBHILL
    Acts 13:48
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    27 May '13 23:15
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    It's a cultural difference, really. Arabs place great meaning on being the first-born son. They feel that Ishmael should have received the blessing from Abraham, not Isaac, simply due to his being the first-born son. They feel they got conned out of their birthright. This is a thing not to be 'gotten over' lightly.
    There are many times in the word that the first born donT get the blessing. And it still happens today in the world. Probably because the first born doesn't deserve it.
  6. Standard memberRemoved
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    27 May '13 23:19
    I expect some to respond saying the whole thing is God's fault.
    I think God is right. But they may be right here too.
    The concept of a bungling and mistake prone Ultimate Governor of the universe is not realistic to me. Whoever transcends God and can correct God must be God themelves. And there is only one God so the cosmic buck of what is ultimately just must end with Him.


    God is right. Hagar and Ismael made their own decisions, mostly wrong.Abraham and Sarah made bad decisions too.
    I do not believe God knows what is going to happen. He has a pretty good idea, but he can turn events to fulfill his promises. God has to gamble if we truly are to have free will.
    There is an interesting book out there by John Sanders, I think, entitled "The God who Risks."
  7. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    29 May '13 14:58
    Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
    I agree with you entirely Suzianne. You are correct.

    And by the way, While I am here, I am sorry if I gave the impression
    that all Muslims should be burned at the stake or bombed out of their
    homes. My thread "Death to all Muslims" has been removed by the
    Administration and I do agree with the reasons they posted to me in a
    personal mes ...[text shortened]... y go on
    such a rant. I would like to apologise to Taoman and others for any
    offense given.
    It is true the ALL Muslims are not the problem. Some Muslims are innocently ignorant of what they are doing. However, there is no shortage of hateful Muslims that understand exactly what they are doing and don't care who they hurt in the process.

    The Instructor
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