1. Standard memberRajk999
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    01 Oct '15 12:281 edit
    There are many Christians who claim that as long as you profess your faith in Christ you receive the Holy Spirit [HS]. Now when asked exactly what this means you will get a variety of responses...

    - having the HS means that no sin will be counted against them as they HS cannot sin
    - having the HS means that they cannot sin
    - having the HS means that I will only do good works

    I contend that all three claims are incorrect and unBiblical.

    - A mans sin [done after a knowledge of Christ and after accepting Christ] is counted again him and he will bear the burden of that sin.
    - There is ample evidence in the Bible that some with the HS did commit sin
    - There is ample evidence in the Bible that some with the HS did not do good works.
    [I can produce references to support these three claims ]

    Here is a little additional information on what the Bible says. Compare what Christ says in Luke v Matthew :

    Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

    Matt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


    God giving the HS to His people therefore really giving them good things that they may serve Him well in their walk with Him. Paul explains further in 1 Cor 12 there is a diversity of spiritual gifts, speaking in tongues, prophesying, exhorting, wisdom, healing, miracles etc. All are from the same source - the Holy Spirit of God. And this HS must manifest itself in some kind of good work or thing otherwise it is a false claim, a lie or a sham.

    What is often ignored is that HS gifts described by Paul in 1 Cor 12 is delegated to second place after something far more important. Paul explains in 1 Cor 13, far more important that faith as well...

    Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

    Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

    But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

    And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

    And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. (1Co 12:27-13:7)


    Paul descibes love and charity as more excellent than all of faith, prophesying, tongues - all these are nothing without brotherly love and charity.

    The only thing that stands when Christ returns love and charity as Matt 25 states so clearly that it cannot be dismissed, despite the claims of some false preachers that Matt 25 refers to some other gospel or some other dispensation.

    I am expecting a discussion on what Paul says in Romans 8, which is another chapter completely misunderstood by many Christians.
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    01 Oct '15 13:19
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    There are many Christians who claim that as long as you profess your faith in Christ you receive the Holy Spirit [HS]. Now when asked exactly what this means you will get a variety of responses...

    - having the HS means that no sin will be counted against them as they HS cannot sin
    - having the HS means that they cannot sin
    - having the HS means that ...[text shortened]... hat Paul says in Romans 8, which is another chapter completely misunderstood by many Christians.
    The blind leading the blind...😴
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    01 Oct '15 13:33
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    There are many Christians who claim that as long as you profess your faith in Christ you receive the Holy Spirit [HS]. Now when asked exactly what this means you will get a variety of responses...

    - having the HS means that no sin will be counted against them as they HS cannot sin
    - having the HS means that they cannot sin
    - having the HS means that I will only do good works

    I contend that all three claims are incorrect and unBiblical.
    I don't know any Christians who believe this.
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    01 Oct '15 13:47
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    The blind leading the blind...😴
    I quoted only Paul supporting what Jesus said about HS gifts.
    Interesting that you think they are both blind.

    Is that the same Christ you expect to give you eternal life.
    Ops sorry .. I forgot ..
    - you already have eternal life
    - not even God an take away that from you
    - you can sin all you want and still get eternal life

    I guess you could not find a copy and paste article to suit my post... 😀
  5. Standard memberKellyJay
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    01 Oct '15 14:25
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    There are many Christians who claim that as long as you profess your faith in Christ you receive the Holy Spirit [HS]. Now when asked exactly what this means you will get a variety of responses...

    - having the HS means that no sin will be counted against them as they HS cannot sin
    - having the HS means that they cannot sin
    - having the HS means that ...[text shortened]... hat Paul says in Romans 8, which is another chapter completely misunderstood by many Christians.
    "- having the HS means that no sin will be counted against them as they HS cannot sin
    - having the HS means that they cannot sin
    - having the HS means that I will only do good works "

    I agree these are not true either.
  6. Standard memberRajk999
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    01 Oct '15 14:38
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    "- having the HS means that no sin will be counted against them as they HS cannot sin
    - having the HS means that they cannot sin
    - having the HS means that I will only do good works "

    I agree these are not true either.
    Do some Christians make claims along these lines?
    If not are any similar claims made?
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    01 Oct '15 15:12
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I quoted only Paul supporting what Jesus said about HS gifts.
    Interesting that you think they are both blind.

    Is that the same Christ you expect to give you eternal life.
    Ops sorry .. I forgot ..
    - you already have eternal life
    - not even God an take away that from you
    - you can sin all you want and still get eternal life

    I guess you could not find a copy and paste article to suit my post... 😀
    Just because you post a few verses does not mean you understand them.
    No, as usual you ignore what was said. I said YOU are blind not Paul.
    I will not waste my time with you, so you could come back with your favorite verse in Hebrews which you also do not understand.
    From what you write, I think you are wishful, but you do not know Christ as your Savior.
    I hope someone here can lead you in the right direction.🙂
  8. Standard memberRajk999
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    01 Oct '15 15:36
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Just because you post a few verses does not mean you understand them.
    No, as usual you ignore what was said. I said YOU are blind not Paul.
    I will not waste my time with you, so you could come back with your favorite verse in Hebrews which you also do not understand.
    From what you write, I think you are wishful, but you do not know Christ as your Savior.
    I hope someone here can lead you in the right direction.🙂
    I mentioned two names in the post:
    - Jesus who was speaking of the Holy Spirit , and
    - Paul who explained in detail what Holy Spirit gifts were about.

    Paul learned from Jesus about these gifts. I was not saying anything about HS gifts of my own knowing, as I know nothing apart from what is in the Bible.

    So your somewhat arrogant statement ..blind leading the blind must be referring to Jesus and Paul. You think they are both blind because what they say about HS gifts is completely contrary to your doctrine. Apparently you think you [and your church/pastors] know more than they do.

    Further I dont care to go in the direction that you refer to as 'right' because that obviously [as you always run contrary to Jesus] is the broad way to you know where ..😀 Nobody 'leads' me except Jesus, as I am immune to church dogma.
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    01 Oct '15 18:17
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I mentioned two names in the post:
    - Jesus who was speaking of the Holy Spirit , and
    - Paul who explained in detail what Holy Spirit gifts were about.

    Paul learned from Jesus about these gifts. I was not saying anything about HS gifts of my own knowing, as I know nothing apart from what is in the Bible.

    So your somewhat arrogant statement [b]..blind ...[text shortened]... oad way to you know where ..😀 Nobody 'leads' me except Jesus, as I am immune to church dogma.
    Good for you, at least you have conviction in what you think is right. Good luck in your journey and be well...🙂
  10. Standard memberRajk999
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    01 Oct '15 18:461 edit
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Good for you, at least you have conviction in what you think is right. Good luck in your journey and be well...🙂
    .. .. the words that I [Jesus] speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Jesus saith I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Try to follow Jesus Christ and His teachings .. it is the only way.
  11. SubscriberSuzianne
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    01 Oct '15 19:04
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Nobody 'leads' me except Jesus, as I am immune to church dogma.
    This is the point I've been trying to make in this forum for a long time now.

    There are plenty of people around today who think they can make it just fine on their own, reading the Bible and following their 'gut' as to what it means.

    The Bible calls this "leaning unto your own understanding", and this is precisely how a lot of people get it wrong.

    Church dogma has its place. It helps to clarify some points for people who are adrift in their own understanding, which is sometimes pathetically limited. It also exists to clarify for people walking in the church door for the first time what that church is about, so that a new attendee might ascertain whether this is the church for them. You don't like that church's dogma, then you are free to find a church that more closely fits your own dogma. This is how to have "fellowship" within the church body (speaking loosely here of Christianity as the larger "church body" ). This is what I'm talking about as "finding like-minded people to have fellowship with" (which some here have chosen to ridicule). Fellowship was Jesus' idea from the beginning. He had 12 apostles for a reason.

    True, some churches have taken this to the extreme, and claim that no one is "righteous" or "worthy of Heaven" except their own members. These are rightfully scorned. Christianity is for everyone and no one should be made to feel "less than a Christian".

    What you're doing is like being a hermit. One who shuns society soon learns that the times are passing him by, that what he knew of the world is frightfully lacking. The hermit has no way of benefiting from others' more in-depth knowledge. He shuns that, and substitutes his own limited knowledge, and therefore falls into error.

    I wouldn't go about bragging that you are "immune from church dogma". All that tells me is that you are proud of adhering only to your own limited knowledge. The rest of the Christians here have told you how you err in your own understanding of scripture.

    You say nobody leads you except Jesus. Well, if He were here, He'd tell you to get over yourself and get yourself to church.
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
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    02 Oct '15 06:261 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Do some Christians make claims along these lines?
    If not are any similar claims made?
    Well if I run into any of them making those claim I'll join you in disagreeing with them.
    I don't want to make up people's views so I can agree or disagree with them. There are
    plenty of people here we can do that with in real life.
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