The Judgment Seat of Christ

One poster submits:

We are eternally united with Christ at the moment of salvation Eph.5:30. We are flesh of His flesh and bone of His bones. We will never be put aside or separated from our Savior regardless of rewards or lack of them and shame.John 10:28 ]

But the question is - Can one who is united with Christ forever be put to shame from the Lord?"

First John 2:28 strongly indicates that the answer is yes.
Such putting away from the Lord in shame, for the Christian, is not eternal.
But it can be dispensational, temporary, and lasting not more than a thousands years.

Many of you have never heard this. Now you are being introduced to the matter of the possibility of one eternally being saved being temporarily punished. This is a truth which has been neglected. Arminians assume that any passage speaking in this tone to Christians has to mean the loss of eternal life.

Now consider the parable of the Lord Jesus about the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18:23-35. You will have to read the whole parable for yourselves.

But look at the outcome of the master's discipline of the unforgiving servant -

"And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed.

So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (18:34,35)

1.) The discipline of the unforgiving servant is unpleasant or else the parable would not contain the words torturers .

2.) The discipline of the unforgiving servant is temporary because it is "UNTIL" a certain time. That means it was not never ending but to be terminated at an appropriate time.

3.) The warning of temporary unpleasant punishment is a warning to the Lord's disciples - "SO ALSO ... will My heavenly Father do to you ..."

4.) The parable strongly indicates a dealing that the Lord's servants will undergo at His coming back.

"Then his master called him to him" (verse 32) It is at the judgement seat of Christ following His second coming that Jesus will call us to Himself to give an account of our Christian life.

"For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad." ( 2 Cor. 5:4)

Come on Kiki46. And I commend you for your boldness.
Don't let me get away that easy.

Members of His Body indeed each Christian is.
Does that exempt the believer from discipline at the judgment seat of Christ?

What if there is something in us which is NOT a part of His Body ? Shall I take a member of His body and make it joined to a prostitute?, Paul asks.

Yes, I believe into the Lord Jesus and I am a member of His Body - a member of the body of Christ.

Now suppose I do not like to abide in Him in certain areas after even many years of being convicted by the Holy Spirit? Suppose I am a believer who continues to practice fornication. And in that area of sex outside of marriage, though I am a member of the Body of Christ, I disdain to abide in the Lord in that area.

When the Lord Jesus is manifested, do you you think that practice of fornication is part of His body ? I know that you do not. So we have the apostolic exhortation to abide in Him.

If I choose to refuse to learn to abide in Him in that area, the immorality will exclude me from participating in the reward of inheriting the millennial kingdom.

Here the NT warns the Christians as members of Christ's body that certain lifestyles may result that they be temporarily put away from inheriting the kingdom of God.

"And the works of the flesh are manifest, which are such things as fornication, uncleaness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, divisions, sects, envyings, bouts of drunkeness, carousings, and things like these, of which I tell you beforehand, even as I have said before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering ... etc. etc" (See Galatians 6:19-22)

Grasp the tone here. It is the exhortation of warning to brothers and sisters as Christian believers -

" ... and things like these, of which I tell you beforehand, even as I have said before, that those who practices such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

1.) He tells us beforehand so that none will be surprised.

2.) It is not the first time he told us. He told us before.

3.) The list is not exhaustive. It includes "and things like these" . It is only a representative list of works of the flesh.

4.) Those who practice such things are not abiding in Him and are not walking in the Spirit. They are no being led by the Spirit (v.18). But they are saved as to eternal life.

Originally posted by sonship
Come on Kiki46. And I commend you for your boldness.
Don't let me get away that easy.

Members of His Body indeed each Christian is.
Does that exempt the believer from discipline at the judgment seat of Christ?

What if there is something in us which is [b]NOT a part of His Body ? Shall I take a member of His body and make it joined to a pro ...[text shortened]... pirit. They are no being led by the Spirit (v.18). But they are saved as to eternal life.[/b]

Rubbish !! You jokers continue to twist the Bible with such impunity, it makes one wonder if you really believe in God.

This is clear:

2. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Pet 2:20-21)

Read it :

- THE LATTER END IS WORSE WITH THEM THAN THE BEGINNING
- IT IS BETTER IF THEY HAD NOT KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS THAN TO KNOW IT AND TURN FROM IT.

Does that sound like temporary punishment?

All your long fancydancy analysis is garbage.

According to Romans 8:1 "there is therefore now no condemnation{ or judgement} to those who are in Christ" { believers in Christ}. Jesus was judged as a substitute for us on the Cross. At the judgement seat of Christ only our deeds are made manifest for evaluation to determine their value. If they are of Divine value we will be recompensed if not they are put aside for destruction by means of fire.1 Cor.3:13, 2Cor. 5:10.Yes there will be embarrassment and a sense of shame for all the time we have wasted in worthless production.After death when we have received ultimate sanctification and a resurrection body like that of Christ there is no longer any discipline for us only eternal happiness.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Rubbish !! You jokers continue to twist the Bible with such impunity, it makes one wonder if you really believe in God.

This is clear:

[i]2. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the be ...[text shortened]... .

Does that sound like temporary punishment?

All your long fancydancy analysis is garbage.

2Peter 2:20,21 is talking about people that have heard the gospel of Christ and rejected it. Check out the whole chapter.

Originally posted by kiki46
According to Romans 8:1 "there is therefore now no condemnation{ or judgement} to those who are in Christ" { believers in Christ}. Jesus was judged as a substitute for us on the Cross. At the judgement seat of Christ only our deeds are made manifest for evaluation to determine their value. If they are of Divine value we will be recompensed if not they are put ...[text shortened]... ection body like that of Christ there is no longer any discipline for us only eternal happiness.

Do you people know how to read?

Here is the whole verse of Romans 8:1

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

It should be obvious to a 5 yr old reading the verse, that there are two groups of people who believe in Christ :

- those who walk after the Spirit
- those who walk after the flesh.

The ones who escape condemnation are those who walk after the Spirit. So is it your point that all Christians walk after the Spirit?

Originally posted by kiki46
2Peter 2:20,21 is talking about people that have heard the gospel of Christ and rejected it. Check out the whole chapter.

I know that. It appears that you dont.

There are Christians who hear the gospel, they are converted and they subsequently reject Christ.

Do you understand?

Originally posted by Rajk999

This is clear:

2. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Pet 2:20-21)

Read it :

- THE LATTER END IS WORSE WITH THEM THAN THE BEGINNING
- IT IS BETTER IF THEY HAD NOT KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS THAN TO KNOW IT AND TURN FROM IT.

Does that sound like temporary punishment?

Second Peter 2:20,21 does not refer to the dispensational discipline of Christians. It refers to nominal Christians who are false believers.

In Matthew 13:24-30 which He interprets in verses 36-43, the parable of the wheat and tares is taught. The tares are artificial wheat that are so close in appearance that even the servants of the master cannot always tell them apart from genuine wheat. False Christians will grow along with true Christians in the world and in many cases only the angels of God at the end will be able to tell them apart.

The tares represent false Christians. And the ones Peter speaks of in 2 Peter 2:20 are false Christians.

Verse 20 reads "For if, having escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ but having again been entangled in these, they are defeated, the last state has become worse for them than the first."

False Christians can sometimes put up a impressive show of self reform or turning over a new leaf. Self improvement, self help religions like Christian Science, or twelve step programs may attract some strong willed individuals who both dignify their self help by claiming they are followers of Jesus. Remember that the parable of the wheat and the tares teaches that it will not always be possible for the Lord's servants to tell the difference between real Christians and nominal Christians.

"And the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where then did the tares come from? And he said to them, An enemy has done this." (Matt. 13:28)

The strict instructions of the master are that they disciples should not attempt to rid "the world" (v.38) of nominal Christians because they will not always be able to tell them from the genuine Christians:

"And the slaves said to him, Do you want us then to go and collect them? But he said, NO, lest while collecting the tares, you uproot the wheat along with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Collect first the tares and bind them into bundles to burn them up, but the wheat gather into my barn." (vs. 28b-30)

The Apostle Peter is speaking of false Christians who appear even to escape the defilement of the world in some degree.

Recall also how when Moses threw his staff down and God miraculously turned it into a serpent, the magicians of Egypt were able to do the same thing by their Satanic occultic arts (Exodus 7:8-14).

Verse 22 says "It has happened to them according to the true proverb: The dog has turned to its own vomit, and the washed sow to wallowing in the mud."

Rajk999 teaches, based on verse 20, that these have escaped the defilement of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus, so surely they must be saved Christians.

But Peter's wording in verse 22 is very careful to explain WHO these people are. They are described not as sheep but as dogs and sows. Yes, outwardly they have the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But Jesus said that His people were His sheep. He said that His sheep would never perish.

Jesus said that He gave eternal life to His sheep. He never said that He gave eternal life to His dogs or His pigs (his sows). He also never says that His sheep return to the mud or His sheep return to their vomit. Jesus never mixed up the two kinds of people - sheep and dogs, sheep and sows.

Like the false wheat - the tares, some nominal Christians are quick to talk to you about doctrines related to the Lord and Savior Jesus. They may seem to temporarily confess Jesus, ( The disciples are warned the they will sometimes not be able to detect the falsehood ).

They have never received the Lord. They have though removed a little outward defilement. But when sentiments change, they go back to their old ways. The last state of this kind of people is worse than the first state. They also may proclaim that they are X Christians and sell best selling books to a world eager to hear about the falsehood of the Gospel.

These people are not sheep at all. They are the dogs and the sows. Because they are dogs, they turn to their own vomit. Because they are sows, they wallow in the mud after they have had some outward cleaning up.

This does not mean that a Christian cannot backslide into sinning. A Christian also may touch mud and wallow in mud. But for the Christian it is a very uncomfortable thing to do so. If he is comfortable wallowing in the filthy mud then he is a sow. A Christian could perhaps also swallow his own vomit. But he will feel that it is repulsive, and he will feel uncomfortable if he does that.

This is the difference between the sow, the dog, and the sheep. One has to identify clearly the nature of the dog and the sow. In the Bible, sows and dogs refer to the unsaved ones. They do not refer to the saved ones, the Lord's sheep. If a person is a sheep He has been given eternal life and no one is able to pluck him out of the hand of the Son's great love and the Father's grat power (John 10:27-30).

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] This is clear:

2. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to ...[text shortened]... him out of the hand of the Son's great love and the Father's grat power [b](John 10:27-30).[/b]

7 edits. .. 😀

There was a guy some years ago that did that but with just short posts with just a sentence or two. He eventually changed his 'title' to '7 edits'. Cant remember his name though.

Another argument from Second Peter 2:1 is the that phrase "the Master who bought them" has to indicate Christians. Some people read there "the Lord who saved them" though the passage says "the Master who bought them" .

"But there arose also false prophets among the people, as also among you there will be false teachers, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction."

This word in Greek is only used one of the place in the NT for "Lord" that I can find (acts 4:24). Overwhelmingly another word in Greek is used to translate into Lord. Most versions say "Master" or "Sovereign Lord" or [b]"Sovereign Master".

This seldom usage of the word for "Lord" does not prove that it could not refer to the Lord. It does indicate that the word is specialized ... "Master".

Now has Jesus bought them ? Only in the sense that Jesus was also the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). Though the whole world will not be forgiven the NT nevertheless says that Jesus as the Lamb of God took away the sins of the world.

The scope of the ones Jesus took away the sins for in principle was larger than the number of those who believe into Him and are saved. The scope of what Jesus bought on the cross is in a sense universal. He tasted death on behalf of everything (Hebrews 2:9). Yet His death is only beneficial to those who believe into Him.

In Matthew 13:44 we see that "The kingdom of the heavens is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid, and in his joy goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field."

This shows that that Jesus sold whatever He had to buy the treasure. But not only did He buy the treasure, He bought the whole field as well. The treasure was a small part, but the field was the big part. The treasure is in the field. In order to obtain the treasure of the kingdom, the Lord went to the cross, sold all that He had and bought the whole world.

Those in the kingdom of the heavens are the treasure. But what the Lord bought was the field.

So in this sense the unbelieving false prophets and false teachers deny the Master who bought them. In the same way they are part of the whole world that in principle the Lamb of God took away all the sins from.

"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." (John 1:29)

We are also told that Jesus Christ is the propitiation not only for the believer's sins, but for the sins of the whole world.

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for those of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

Though Jesus provided a payment, a propitiation for the sins of the whole world, Substitution takes place for a smaller number of those in the whole world, because of believing into Christ.

In this sense the false Christians deny the Master who bought them. Potentially and in principle He bought the whole world of sinners.

The scope of buying is greater than the scope of salvation. The work of buying and redemption on His cross is different from His work of substitution. Christ's substitution is only for all the believers, but He died for the whole world. He made the scope wide enough. But this does not mean that the whole world is saved.

And those who denied the Master who bought them are not genuine Christians in Second Peter 2:1 but nominal ones.

The passage does not say then denied the Lord who saved them. But bought is very broad there.

Originally posted by Rajk999

Here is the whole verse of Romans 8:1

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

It should be obvious to a 5 yr old reading the verse, that there are two groups of people who believe in Christ :

- those who walk after the Spirit
- those who walk after the flesh.

The ones who escape condemnation are those who walk after the Spirit. So is it your point that all Christians walk after the Spirit?

This is true that those who walk in the Spirit are not under condemnation and those who do not are under condemnation.

However the condemnation that Paul is speaking of is self condemnation. It is the condemnation of feeling wretched. This is proved by context and the previous passages of Romans chapter 7.

Romans chapter seven ends with the law striving religious person crying out -

"Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death ? (Rom. 7:24)

The feeling of wretchedness as not being able to do what he wills and doing what he hates leads to SELF condemnation. And in self condemnation he cries out "WHO will deliver me from the body of this death ?" .

The answer comes in the next chapter as a whole, Romans 8. But before that he gives us heads up.

"Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death? Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin."

The entire predicament of Romans chapter seven is one resulting wretched self condemnation. Now he starts to speak about walking in the Spirit -

"There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." (8:1)

Eternal condemnation at the Great White throne has passed from every Christian because he is in Christ. They were already judged eternally on Christ's cross on Calvary.

Self condemnation is passed from the ones learning to walk by the Spirit as is focused on in chapter 8.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote]
Here is the whole verse of Romans 8:1

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

It should be obvious to a 5 yr old reading the verse, that there are two groups of people who believe in Christ :

- those who walk after the Spirit
- those who walk aft ...[text shortened]... ation is passed from the ones learning to walk by the Spirit as is focused on in chapter 8.[/b]

Do you actually believe all that bull$... you write?

Originally posted by kiki46

2Peter 2:20,21 is talking about people that have heard the gospel of Christ and rejected it. Check out the whole chapter.

I agree, as explained above.

The Lord Jesus warned in the parable of the wheat and the tares that sometimes it would be impossible for the servants of the Lord to detect such subtlety from the sower of the false Christians (the tares).

Second Peter is an indication that the early disciples already were having this problem of tares-like heretics secretly bringing in false teachings. And so Peter's warnings there.