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This Thread is about the judgment of Christians by God.
By Christians I mean those believers in the risen Son of God and for whom the issue of eternal redemption and eternal life have already been settled in the affirmative.
What I write in this thread will contain some refutation of the false charge that the gift of eternal life (Ephesians 6:23) is a license to ever after live a sinful life.
This thread is dedicated by me to those who believe as I do " ... for by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8)
It is not primarily for Arminians, JWs, Atheists, Agnostics, X self professed "Christians." Of course its a public forum and I cannot stop anyone from reading or commenting.
But this thread is primarily for the edification and progress of my fellow believers in the Gospel of the Grace of God.
What is "the judgment seat of Christ" ? Is it the last judgment ? Is it the judgment of the Great White Throne in Revelation chapter 20 ? No it is not. The judgment seat of Christ refers to the judgment by Jesus Christ of those eternally saved as to what reward or punishment they will temporarily receive during the 1,000 years following His second coming.
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The phrase "the judgment seat of Christ" is found in Second Corinthians informs the Christians of the church in Corinth that they all, and including Paul himself, will be manifested before Christ to be judged by Him.
"For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad." (2 Cor. 5:10)
When Jesus said that those who believe into Him have passed out of judgment (John 5:24) He did not mean that the saved persons is altogether exempt from judgment. Otherwise Paul would be contradicting Christ.
The believer has passed from eternal judgment - "Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24)
Such a person with eternal life will appear before the judgment seat of Christ, says Paul in Second Corinthians 5:10 including Paul the apostle himself - "For WE must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ....".
In the First Corinthian letter Paul definitely alludes to the same judgment seat of Christ in these words also to the Corinthian church:
"So then do not judge anything before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then there will be praise to each from God." (1 Cor. 4:5)
No unbeliever will be qualified to appear before this judgment seat of Christ. It is for Christians exclusively.
The same judgment seat of Christ is called the judgment seat of God in the epistle to the Christians in Rome:
"But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God, ..." (Romans 14:10)
The judgment seat of Christ is also called the judgment seat of God.
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The unbeliever's works are to be repented of. They cannot save him or her.
The phrase - "repentance from dead works" (Hebrews 6:1) is an exhortation to turn from trying to earn eternal salvation through the works of the unregenerated fallen nature and receive instead "the free gift of God".
Some people think only one's bad works should be repented of. Hebrews refers to trying to be justified before God eternally through good works as the "dead works" which need also to be repented of.
The GIFT of God - eternal life - is severed completely from our human merit.
" ... the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:23)
For eternal life it is Jesus Christ Himself who is our righteousness. God regards the believer as perfectly righteous as if he or she had fulfilled the whole Law. Christ is now the believer's history, the believer's legacy, the believer's record. Christ Himself is the needed righteousness for eternal redemption.
Only these people are qualified to appear before the judgment seat of Christ as to reward or discipline at the beginning of the millennial kingdom. This judgment seat of Christ is the judgment seat of God for those saved eternally.
"What have you done in your body? What have you done in the members of your body - feet, hands, mouth, eyes, ears, tongue, etc. ?"
Look again. What we have done in our body from the time we were Christians is what we will receive in terms of reward or punishment (not pertaining to eternity) but pertaining to the millennial kingdom.
"THE THINGS DONE THROUGH THE BODY" - "For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what the has practiced, whether good or bad." ( Second Cor. 5:10).
The things "practiced" should refer to regularity and habit. A one or two time occurrence may not be under examination. But what the Christians has developed as a "practice" - a lifestyle so to speak.
What was practiced will become what one will receive. That is the fruit of what one sowed will be reaped as consequences.
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This thread is not about the GIFT but about the REWARD.
If divine life is by faith, reward is consequent on works done after faith.
The saved soul in the New Testament is viewed as:
Racing as a runner,
Wrestling as an athelete,
Fighting as a warrior,
Sowing as a farmer,
Building as a mason,
Flying as a fugitive.
All this strenuous intensive exercising is viewed as being towards God as a REWARDER. Ie " God, ... He is a rewarded" (Hebrews 6:6) .
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Originally posted by kiki46
With proper motivation from the filling of the Holy Spirit our deeds are the basis of reward at the judgement seat of Christ not only for the millennium but for all eternity,i,e, gold,silver, and precious stones of 1Cor.3.
With proper motivation from the filling of the Holy Spirit our deeds are the basis of reward at the judgement seat of Christ not only for the millennium but for all eternity,i,e, gold,silver, and precious stones of 1Cor.3.
Ah, someone is paying close attention!
Welcome.
Could you elaborate just a little here ?
I am glad that you mentioned "proper motivation".
And I am glad you mentioned the Holy Spirit.
I am not sure what you mean by "reward ... for all eternity".
In the First Corinthians three Paul speaks of the reward and the loss of reward. If you mean that after the millennial kingdom a believer could still be disciplined by the loss of reward, I would want to point out the perfection achieved by ALL sons of God by the end of the millennium.
The reason why, if that is what you mean, is because the perfection that the disciplined believer has undergone by that time is completed. There is not more reward or loss of reward in that sense in the age of the new heaven and the new earth.
Every believer by that time has been fully conformed to the image of Christ and is perfected and built up together into the New Jerusalem. The new heaven and new earth are where righteousness dwells and no more need for this discipline is required.
"But according to His promise we are expecting NEW HEAVENS and NEW EARTH, in which righteousness dwells." (2 Peter 3:13)
In the new heaven and new earth (Revelation 21:1), all the sons of God have been transformed to be not only positionally righteous (as they were all throughout the church age), but dispositionally righteous.
According to the promise of God the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth will also be the age of the full maturity of all the saved ones throughout previous epochs. Only righteousness dwells therein.
Doesn't that indicate to you that no more immaturity, no more imperfection, no more stunted growth, and no more non-conformity to the splendid image of Christ exists by then ?
He who overcomes is spoken to the Christians in relation to the reward in the millennium in (Revelation 2:7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21)
He who overcomes in the end of Revelation pertaining to the age of the new heaven and new earth speaks of the final overcoming of all, both who were early overcomers and late overcomers . In other words these overcomers inherit the common blessings secured for all the constituents of the New Jerusalem:
"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me." (Rev. 21:7)
The phrase "these things" refers back to the things pertaining to all things being made new (21:5) - the "new heaven and a new earth"( 21:1)
The holy city is perfected to the uttermost - "And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev. 21:2)
This is not reward but the GIFT. The overcoming mentioned in verse 7 means all children of God have at the end of the millennium become prevailing in their transformation into Christ's image and built up.
They have arrived as Paul said all the saints must eventually arrive -
"Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ ..." (Eph. 4:13)
By the end of the millennium all have arrived. All have not arrived at the same time. But all must eventually arrive - "Until we all arrive ...". That is arrival at the full expression of the full grown corporate Christ.
We have all arrived when the new heaven and new earth has only righteousness to dwell in it.
Do you still see rewards and punishments taking place to the saints of God during this time of the new heaven and the new earth, in which righteousness dwells ?
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Originally posted by kiki46
With proper motivation from the filling of the Holy Spirit our deeds are the basis of reward at the judgement seat of Christ not only for the millennium but for all eternity,i,e, gold,silver, and precious stones of 1Cor.3.
It would be benefit to the fellowship to speak something, I think, about the proper motivation.
Please tell us what you have learned about the proper motivation.
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Reward then is subject in the New Testament. It is not inconsistent to say that God rewards good works.
The New Testament speaks of relative rank, place, reward as consequence to faithfulness. Obviously word pictures like farmer, runner, wrestler, soldier, mason are all "works" oriented. They are not pictures of passive persons.
"Behold I come quickly; and my REWARD is with Me, to render to each [disciple] according as his work is " (Revelation 22:12)
How can we possibly deny that the New Testament teaches then of REWARD in response to faithful works ? We cannot. Nor should we want to.
The is GIFT and there is REWARD. And we need to discriminate between them rather than use one concept to fight down the other as non-existent.
Some Bible readers seem to waste a life time pushing to be in one extreme only or the other.
Originally posted by sonship[b]With proper motivation from the filling of the Holy Spirit our deeds are the basis of reward at the judgement seat of Christ not only for the millennium but for all eternity,i,e, gold,silver, and precious stones of 1Cor.3.
It would be benefit to the fellowship to speak something, I think, about the proper motivation.
Please tell us what you have learned about the proper motivation.[/b]Our proper motivation should be to glorify God and not ourselves in the Christian way of life. This can only be done through the filling of The Holy Spirit and by growing in grace and knowledge of God,2 peter 3:18. Rewards for our production or Divine good deeds are received at the judgement seat of Christ only and will last for eternity. Lack of rewards result in shame not discipline only at this time. Reward or shame are in regard to time only. In our resurrection bodies with the old sin nature gone there is no further need for any evaluation. We will be like Christ forever. Phil 1:19, 1 John 3:2.
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Originally posted by kiki46
Our proper motivation should be to glorify God and not ourselves in the Christian way of life. This can only be done through the filling of The Holy Spirit and by growing in grace and knowledge of God,2 peter 3:18.
Amen to this.
Rewards for our production or Divine good deeds are received at the judgement seat of Christ only and will last for eternity. Lack of rewards result in shame not discipline only at this time. Reward or shame are in regard to time only. In our resurrection bodies with the old sin nature gone there is no further need for any evaluation. We will be like Christ forever. Phil 1:19, 1 John 3:2.
Consider First John very carefully.
And now little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming.
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righeousness also has been begotten of Him.
.... Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be, We know that if He is manifested, we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is."
This is how First John 2:28,29, and 3:2 read in the Recovery Version.
When you say
"Lack of rewards result in shame not discipline only at this time.
I would point out that John says that there is the possibility that the believers may be "PUT ... to shame" when Jesus is manifested. Jesus is manifested at the end of the church age. Jesus is manifested at the beginning of the millennial age of the kingdom.
The Apostle John says that conditionally, based upon our heeding of the warning to "abide in Him" ... "we many have boldness and not be PUT TO SHAME FROM HIM." (2:28)
Notice that it is not a matter simply our FEELING, ie. that we may FEEL ashamed. Rather it is a matter that we may be "PUT TO SHAME". There is the possibility that one not practicing the abiding in Him may be put to shame from before Him when He is manifested.
This must mean that when Jesus Christ is manifested some Christians will be put off or apart or somewhere from the Lord Jesus.
Am I right ? Think about it.
"And now little children, abide in Him, *** SO THAT *** we may have boldness and NOT be PUT TO SHAME from Him at His coming." [my emphasis EDITED ]
This is a possibility of punishment AT or AFTER the coming of Jesus Christ TO the Christian.
Then you wrote this:
Reward or shame are in regard to time only. In our resurrection bodies with the old sin nature gone there is no further need for any evaluation. We will be like Christ forever. Phil 1:19, 1 John 3:2.
But why is there then the warning to abide in Him SO THAT we may not be put to shame FROM Him ?
I admit that chapter 2 verse 3 does say, "We will be like Him for we shall see Him even as He is." However the promise is not so definite that it cancels out the warning that there is the need to "ABIDE IN HIM" in 2:28 that we not be PUT TO SHAME from before Him, when He is manifested.
Comment please because John is still speaking about TIME. For there is 1,000 years of the millennial kingdom following when Jesus is manifested.
Abiding in Him is another way of saying be filled with the Spirit and continue to grow in grace. We are eternally united with Christ at the moment of salvation Eph.5:30. We are flesh of His flesh and bone of His bones. We will never be put aside or separated from our Savior regardless of rewards or lack of them and shame.John 10:28
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Originally posted by kiki46
Abiding in Him is another way of saying be filled with the Spirit and continue to grow in grace. We are eternally united with Christ at the moment of salvation Eph.5:30. We are flesh of His flesh and bone of His bones. We will never be put aside or separated from our Savior regardless of rewards or lack of them and shame.John 10:28
In saying this - "We will never be put aside or separated from our Savior" even temporarily, you are saying that the Apostle John's word :
" ... we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming" is incorrect. But it says what it says.
" ... not be put o shame from Him at His coming" . In other words the possibility exists that such a discipline for a believer could happen.
So I believe in taking the passage at face value. If I do not abide in Him there is a possibility that when Jesus Christ is manifested I might not have boldness before Him but rather I might be put to shame from Him temporarily.
Hebrews 12:14 says that without the sanctification in subjective holiness no one will see the Lord.
"Pursue peace with all men and sanctification, without which no one will see the Lord."
If Hebrews 12:14 warns that without the pursued sanctification and holiness "no one will see the Lord" AND 1 John 2:28 warns that without building up the practice of abiding in Him we may be "put to shame from Him" how can you be so sure a Christian could NOT be so disciplined ?
I do not have any such assurance as you have, that just because we are eternally redeemed and have eternal life we could not be temporarily deprived the honor of seeing the Lord in some capacity. But rather than enjoying Him in boldness we might be put somewhere in a place of shame from Him.
Am I being reasonable according to the pure word of God ?
You say, and I also agree for the most part:
We are eternally united with Christ at the moment of salvation Eph.5:30. We are flesh of His flesh and bone of His bones. We will never be put aside or separated from our Savior regardless of rewards or lack of them and shame.John 10:28
However, the member of His body is exhorted - "abide in Him ... SO THAT ... if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming."
If being a member of His body meant it is automatic that a Christian is abiding in Christ, then there would be no need for the apostle's exhortation. In that case since he is a member he CANNOT but abide. But that is not the tone of the passage at all. It is an exhortation for the believer, who is a member of Christ's body, to do something which apparently is not AUTOMATIC for him merely because he is a believer.
It matches the words of Jesus in John 15 -
"Abide in Me and I in you, As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me." (John 15:4)
We have to look at the facts of history. We have to consider the word of God and the facts of history. The fact of the matter is that there are brothers and sisters who do not like to abide in Him. Sometimes you and I do not like to abide in Him.
And our relationship with our Savior is not only as members of His body. It is also as servants in His kingdom. I agree that we are united with the Lord forever - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
But there is the kingdom discipline as well and therefore the warnings such as Hebrews 12:14 and First John 2:28.
Your comments ?