The Kingdom of God challenge.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I have been bewildered at the lack of certainty regard the central tenet of Christianity among professed Christians and those who were formerly Christians. Its like asking a chess player, what is the fundamental principle which governs all chess games and receiving no answer.

1. The kingdom of the heavens in the book of Matthew is the overcoming ...[text shortened]... s what your understanding of the Kingdom of God is and see if it stands up to Biblical scrutiny.

Does a person not being a member of your religious organisation preclude them from the JW expressed prediction of a life in the paradise of earth, or as part of the 144,000?

Originally posted by divegeester
Does a person not being a member of religious organisation preclude them from the JW expressed prediction of a life in paradise of earth or as part of the 144,000?

This thread is about the Kingdom of God and what it is. If you have anything to say about the matter let it be heard otherwise I would be much obliged if you take your trolling interrogation routine elsewhere. Thankyou for your cooperation in this regard.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
This thread is about the Kingdom of God and what it is. If you have anything to say about the matter let it be heard otherwise I would be much obliged if you take your trolling interrogation routine elsewhere. Thankyou for your cooperation in this regard.

It's unfortunate for you ~ in so far as I sense you don't like admitting it ~ but your organization has claimed - explicitly - that only members of your organization (which has its corporate head office in New York) will survive the "Great Tribulation". Everyone else dies. Meanwhile, its members supposedly live on forever. If that isn't relevant to a discussion on "the Kingdom of God", then perhaps nothing is. 🙂

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
This thread is about the Kingdom of God and what it is. If you have anything to say about the matter let it be heard otherwise I would be much obliged if you take your trolling interrogation routine elsewhere. Thankyou for your cooperation in this regard.

I am talking about the "Kingdom". The key factors of interest to religious/theistic seekers are a) does it exist and b) what are the entry requirements. As you and I both believe it exists, the next logical point of interest is the entry requirements. That you are always reluctant to discuss this aspect of the Kingdom, implies to me that you are somewhat uncomfortable with the instruction and definition you are given by your JW leadership. Your avoidance of open discussion is therefore noted as being such.

Originally posted by divegeester
I am talking about the "Kingdom". The key factors of interest to religious/theistic seekers are a) does it exist and b) what are the entry requirements. As you and I both believe it exists, the next logical point of interest is the entry requirements. That you are always reluctant to discuss this aspect of the Kingdom, implies to me that you are somewhat ...[text shortened]... given by your JW leadership. Your avoidance of open discussion is therefore noted as being such.

I am not asking if it exists, i am not even asking how you gain entry, What I am ACTUALLY asking is what is it and what it is composed of. You have so far failed to elucidate on either, so we shall ask you outright , What is Gods Kingdom and what are its constituent parts. I am reluctant to discuss nothing but must waste my time reeling people like you in who for some reason known only to themselves seem incapable of actually addressing the issue that was raised, that is What is Gods Kingdom. How difficult could it be.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I am not asking if it exists, i am not even asking how you gain entry, What I am ACTUALLY asking is what is it and what it is composed of. You have so far failed to elucidate on either, so we shall ask you outright , What is Gods Kingdom and what are its constituent parts. I am reluctant to discuss nothing but must waste my time reeling people like ...[text shortened]... y addressing the issue that was raised, that is What is Gods Kingdom. How difficult could it be.

OK, if I start another thread on the entry requirements, will you be comfortable discussing what you are taught about that topic In that thread?

Originally posted by divegeester
OK, if I start another thread on the entry requirements, will you be comfortable discussing what you are taught about that topic In that thread?

Its truth time for you! what is the Kingdom of God and what are its constituent parts, second time asking.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Its truth time for you! what is the Kingdom of God and what are its constituent parts, second time asking.

Tell me; I'm sure you want to.

Originally posted by divegeester
Tell me; I'm sure you want to.

Actually I want you to tell me, thats why I am asking. Obvious I know but apparently not obvious enough.

Originally posted by roigam
I believe the word used in greek was "kosmos" referring to the world of mankind alienated from god or simply, the wicked society of Noah's day.
Likewise the wicked society of our day is set for destruction.

And just as the literal earth did not get destroyed in Noah's day (obvious as it is still here),
so the "earth" will not be destroyed in our day.

...[text shortened]... lesiastes 1:4) A generation is going, and a generation is coming, But the earth remains forever.

What did Jesus mean when he said that heaven and earth will pass away?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

I have been bewildered ...

But my replies will be concise. I have no extended debate time for you.

1. The kingdom of the heavens in the book of Matthew is the overcoming Christian church life and the reward of the millennial kingdom to the overcomers. - Jaywill

That is right. Jesus said this :

" For I say to you than unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and the Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens." (Matt. 5:20)

In short this means a New Testament church life that is not defeated but prevailing. It means a Christian life that is not hypocritical as a show but through and through genuine in expression of Christ's life in the disciple. In short an overcoming Christian life is the qualification to be rewarded with participation in the millennial part of that kingdom of the heavens.

In the seven epistles to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 you also have this promise of reward to "him who overcomes". That is the Christian whose living matures beyond defeat to have a righteous testimony that surpasses the play acting and facade of the scribes and the Pharisees.

I do not feel to respond to points made by Rajk999 right now.
So I skip your 2nd bullet point.

I have no comment on FMF's "contribution". So I skip your 3rd bullet point.

Let me adress these.

1. 'Overcoming Christian life', is typical of the platonic influence which permeates Jaywills perspective turning all matter into evil with only the spiritual deemed good.

No it is not "platonic". You just never got taught this in your Jehovah's Witness teaching.

The word "overcomers" is not found in the NT. But we come close in Paul's phrase - "more than conquer" or if you will "more than conquerers" - ie. overcomers.

" But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us." (Romans 8:37)

Now common sense informs us that Paul is speaking of a Christian life of NORMALITY. We should not dumb down the expression to indicate any old backslidden and defeated Christian testimony. It is a promise of potentiality. There exists NO reason WHY the believer should not experience victory and "more than conquer" because Christ's grace is sufficient.

And to come up to the standard of overcoming we may say the believer will be rewarded for being an overcomer. And this promise to "he who overcomes" is during the millennial kingdom.

It is not automatic based upon being born again or forgiven. It is dependent upon living practically an overcoming Christian life qualifying one for the reward of entering into the millennial time.

Once again, we consult Matthew.

" For I say to you than unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and the Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens." (Matt. 5:20)

The problem is that it leads to airy fairy nonsensical meanderings which require walls and walls of text to explain in direct contrast to the simplicity and clarity of Christ himself.

Concise replies above have answered your objections, I think, to the satisfaction of any reasonable student of the Bible, not already too influenced by Watchtower errors.

Now I don't want to brow beat anyone but please express what your understanding of the Kingdom of God is and see if it stands up to Biblical scrutiny.

I presently have a discussion thread on The Constitution of the Kingdom [of the heavens]. That everything is not explained yet is not due to me having no explanation.
I feel to develop matters gradually with no obligation to rush.

However, a brief word about why I say Matthew's kingdom of the heavens starts with the church age with its overcomers and terminates with the end of the millennium.

1.) START - Jesus said that no greater person than John the Baptist was ever born. But he who was LEAST in the kingdom of the heavens was greater than John.

"Truly I say to you, Among those born of women there has not arisen one greater than John the Baptist, yet he who is least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he." (Matt. 11:11)

What makes a person "great" is how close they are to the Great One - Christ. John was a forerunner to Christ. Being this much closer to Christ than all the other prophets, this makes him the greatest.

But every Christian who has Jesus Christ indwelling them as the Holy Spirit is even CLOSER to Jesus Christ. That makes even the Christian who is LEAST in the new covenant church life greater than John the Baptist. The Great One. Christ, the Great One LIVES in them. He is so close !

So the commencing of the kingdom of the heavens runs concurrently with the founding of the new testament church (Matt. 16:19) .

2.) TERMINATION The positive aspects of the kingdom of the heavens includes its reality during the church age when the keys to it were given to Peter to let justified sinners into the church (Matt. 16:19) and the manifestation as a reward for 1,000 years following the second coming of Christ.

After that 1,000 years the REWARD of kingdom living ends. What follows is the common portion of grace as a gift to ALL the believers whether formerly overcoming or formerly defeated.

Those who "graduated" on time and those who "graduated" late after some remedial learning, all come together for the common gift of eternity. The kingdom of God goes on eternally. The subset of that, called by Matthew "the kingdom of the heavens" comes to an end as a prize.

So Matthew's special treatment of the whole overall kingdom of God which he calls "the kingdom of the heavens" starts with the founding of the church and ends with the end of the millennial kingdom.

The kingdom of God as the outer scope matter has no beginning and no end.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I have been bewildered at the lack of certainty regard the central tenet of Christianity among professed Christians and those who were formerly Christians. Its like asking a chess player, what is the fundamental principle which governs all chess games and receiving no answer.

1. The kingdom of the heavens in the book of Matthew is the overcoming ...[text shortened]... s what your understanding of the Kingdom of God is and see if it stands up to Biblical scrutiny.

The bible should stand up to our inner senses, our own scrutiny.