the koran

just a made up story and some of it plagerized from other earlier non-islamic writings.

@mister-moggy said
just a made up story and some of it plagerized from other earlier non-islamic writings.

Thank goodness you’re here...

@mister-moggy said
just a made up story and some of it plagerized from other earlier non-islamic writings.

Islam sees itself as the through-line for the legitimate worship of the Abrahamic God: they believe the Jews rejected the 'prophet Jesus' and they believe the Christians distorted the Jesus story and got who he was wrong.

@divegeester

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@mister-moggy

just a made up story ...

What story ?
What is the story told in the Quran mister-moggy ?

( I have not finished reading through the Quran yet. It is hard reading to me.)

@sonship
the story is the Heavenly Father spoke to mohammed and revealed truth to him superior, original and final to all other truth.

@mister-moggy

I still yet have some difficulty recalling what is in the Hadiths or classical writings about Mohammed and the Quran itself.
Next time I read it I'll look for the narrative you speak of.

Mostly I get the impression of sayings rather than stories. But I am a newbie at the Quran.
It is not as easy to read as I thought it would be.

@sonship said
. But I am a newbie at the Quran.

Indeed.

It is not one of your finer qualities to belittle the religious books of other faiths.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Indeed.

It is not one of your finer qualities to belittle the religious books of other faiths.

Ghost, Ghost !! I didn't belittle anything. I simply said I find it difficult reading. And I find I have to exercise to recall what is in the classical explanations of the old Moslem scholars and what is in the Quran itself.

Where was the disrespect ?

Some of you guys who play chess with people all over the world here, you should invite Moslems to come to the Spirituality Forum and participate.

And I hope you'd treat them with cordiality.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Indeed.

It is not one of your finer qualities to belittle the religious books of other faiths.

Ghost, Ghost !! I didn't belittle anything. I simply said I find it difficult reading. And I find I have to exercise to recall what is in the classical explanations of the old Moslem scholars and what is in the Quran itself.

Where was the disrespect ?

Please share what you like about the Koran. (A passage or two will suffice).

Thanks in advance.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

It is not read in the chronological order in which the sayings were given. The organization of it starts to me in the middle of nowhere and proceeds meandering around from miscellaneous subject to miscellaneous subject. I am relating to you my take on it so far.

The sayings were existing as fragments possessed by hundreds of his followers. They were collected together after his death - but not 100%. The arrangement of the sayings were not in the chronological order of their being given. Which may not be important to some.

My recollection of the experience of reading the Quran is like reading something like the book of Proverbs in the Bible. Isolated blocks of wise sayings.
The speaker when suppose I believe to mean Allah uses "We".
It could be taken as Allah and his prophet or something else.
It is not easy to grasp the plural pronoun usage.
I have my opinions why, which I will not go into now.

The laying out of the Quran is nothing like the historical narrative of say the first five books of Moses. Not that it has to be. But there is no sense of a narrative of beginnings of all things and progressing in the flow of history.

To say it is a hodge-podge might be offensive. But that's how it comes across to me so far - a scrap book of miscellaneous wisdom sayings.

The Quran makes occasional reference to some things in the Bible both Old and New Testaments.
It is peculiar in its manner of doing so. It kind of wants to give the impression of details to which the writer is privy which you were not given in the Bible. As if to say " Oh, and when that happened, THIS HERE which you were not told happened also."

The impression of the Quran's references to things in the Bible is like - "Here are the details you were not told. We are informing you of the inside story."

In this way the Quran utilizing the Bible to promote its own agenda. Sometimes the details given are opposite of what was conveyed in the Bible. At that point you have to decide WHICH you are going to believe or neither are you going to believe.

Ie. Jesus was not crucified but some other person was instead.

The Quran's "inside story" which Allah is now through Mohammed letting you in on, sometimes flat out contradict the Bible.

Reading the Bible causes peace to flow in my heart. That is not the case with reading the Quran at all.
It is almost painful have a long session of reading the Quran to me.
Others may have a different experience.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

It is not read in the chronological order in which the sayings were given. The organization of it starts to me in the middle of nowhere and proceeds meandering around from miscellaneous subject to miscellaneous subject. I am relating to you my take on it so far.

The sayings were existing as fragments possessed by hundreds of his followers. They were co ...[text shortened]... t painful have a long session of reading the Quran to me.
Others may have a different experience.

The Koran was (allegedly) given to Muhammad through revelations that were clearly disjointed. If these revelations did indeed come from God who are you to question his method of delivery?

"Never once did I receive a revelation without thinking that my soul had been torn away from me." (Muhammad).

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Muhammad himself questioned the source of the messages. He first thought that they were from demons. His two female relatives encouraged him to continue to receive the messages. And he did.

At first receiving the messages prompted him to commit suicide.

Here are additional details from Guillaume's "The Life of Muhammad", page 106.

So I [Muhammad] read it, and he [Gabriel] departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was though these words were written on my heart. (Tabari: Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed - Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest. So I went forth to do so and then) when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying "O Muhammad! thou are the apostle of God and I am Gabriel."


The visitations from the spirit continued. Then they stopped for a time believed to have been 6 months to 3 years. When this happened, Tabari, volume 6 page 76, records:

"The inspiration ceased to come to the messenger of God for a while, and he was deeply grieved. He began to go to the tops of mountain crags, in order to fling himself from them; but every time he reached the summit of a mountain, Gabriel appeared to him and said to him, "You are the Prophet of God." Thereupon his anxiety would subside and he would come back to himself. [4]

https://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/demons.htm

Additionally (same website)-

In "Muhammad at Mecca", page 40, 41, there are also references that document Muhammad's suicidal thoughts. Watt quotes from az-Zuhri's material.

"He (Muhammad) said, I had been meditating throwing myself from a mountain crag, but while I was so meditating, he appeared to me and said, "O Muhammad, I am Gabriel, and thou are the Messenger of God."....

Az-Zuhri said: "There was a gap for a time in the revelation to the Messenger of God and he was very sorrowful. He started going early to the tops of the mountains to throw himself down from them. But whenever he reached the summit of a mountain, Gabriel would appear to him and say, "Thou are the Prophet of God."

However you view this event, it is undeniable that something extraordinary happened to Muhammad in the cave, and he was deeply distressed by it.

So if Muhammad himself questioned the messages why can't someone else?
Besides I merely pointed out something about the arrangement of them.

@mister-moggy said
just a made up story and some of it plagerized from other earlier non-islamic writings.

I am curious if there is anything to the plagiarism claim or if you are just suggesting that the recounting of some of the Bible stories is plagiarism.