1. Account suspended
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    17 Feb '12 10:55
    There is an indefinable mysterious power that pervades everything. I feel it, though
    I do not see it. It is this unseen power which makes itself felt and yet defies all proof
    because it is so unlike all that I perceive through my senses. It transcends the
    senses.

    But it is possible to reason out the existence of god to an [unintelligible] exchange.
    Even in ordinary affairs we know that people do not know who rules, or why, and
    how he rules. And yet they know that there is a power that certainly rules.

    In my tour last year in Mysore I met many poor villagers and I found upon inquiry
    that they did not know who ruled Mysore. They simple said some god ruled it. If the
    knowledge of these poor people was so limited about their ruler, I, who am infinitely
    lesser in respect to god than they to their ruler need not be surprised if I do not
    realize the presence of god, the king of kings.

    Nevertheless I do feel as the poor villagers felt about Mysore, that there is
    orderliness in the universe. There is an unalterable law governing everything and
    every being that exists or lives. It is not a blind law, for no blind law can govern the
    conduct of living beings. And thanks to the marvelous researches of Sir J.C. Bose, it
    can now be proved that even matter is life.

    That law then which governs all life is god. Law and the lawgiver are one. I may not
    deny the law or the lawgiver because I know so little about it or him, just as my
    denial or ignorance of the existence of an earthly power will avail me nothing. Even
    so, my denial of god and his law will not liberate me from its operation. Whereas,
    humble and mute acceptance of divine authority makes life’s journey easier even as
    the acceptance of earthly rule makes life under it easier.

    I do dimly perceive that whilst everything around me is ever dying, ever guiding,
    there is underlying all that change a living power that is changeless, that holds all
    together; that creates, dissolves, and recreates. That informing power of spirit is
    god. And since nothing else that I see merely through the senses can or will persist,
    he alone is.

    And if this power is benevolent or malevolent, I see it as purely benevolent. For, I
    can see that in the midst of death, life persists. In the midst of untruth, truth
    persists. In the midst of darkness, light persists. Hence I gather that god is life,
    truth, light. He is love. He is the supreme good. But, he is no god who merely
    satisfies the intellect, if he ever does. God to be god must rule the heart and
    transform it. He must express himself in ever smallest act of his [goodery?]. This
    can only be done through a definite realization more real than the fives senses can
    ever prove use.

    Sense perceptions can be and often are false and deceptive however real they may
    appear to us. Where there is realization outside the senses it is [imperial?], it is
    proved not by extreme extraneous evidence, but in the transformed conduct and
    character of those who have felt the real presence of god within. Such testimony is
    to be found in the experiences of an unbroken line of prophets and sages in all
    countries and climes. To reject this evidence is to deny oneself. This realization is
    preceded by an immovable faith. He who would in his own person, test the fact of
    god’s presence can do so by a living faith.

    And since faith itself cannot be proved by extraneous evidence, the safest course is
    to believe in the moral government of the world and therefore in the supremacy of
    the moral law, the law of truth and love. Exercise of faiths will be the safest where
    there is the clear determination summarily to reject all that is contrary to truth and
    love.

    I confess that I have no argument to convince through reason. Faith transcends
    reason. All that I can advise is not to attempt the impossible.

    Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
  2. Joined
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    17 Feb '12 12:06
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    There is an indefinable mysterious power that pervades everything. I feel it, though
    I do not see it. It is this unseen power which makes itself felt and yet defies all proof
    because it is so unlike all that I perceive through my senses. It transcends the
    senses.

    But it is possible to reason out the existence of god to an [unintelligible] e ...[text shortened]...
    reason. All that I can advise is not to attempt the impossible.

    Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
    There is an indefinable mysterious power that pervades everything. I feel it, though
    I do not see it. It is this unseen power which makes itself felt and yet defies all proof
    because it is so unlike all that I perceive through my senses. It transcends the
    senses.


    It's just the Midichlorians:

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/02/16/dark-matter-apparently-is-midichlorians/

    --- Penguin.
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    17 Feb '12 12:082 edits
    What a perfect example of trying to fit all the "Favorite Fallacies—of the Very Informal Kind" Thread 145173 into one post.

    Although most of it is so absent of logic or argument that it hardly even deserves the name 'fallacy'.
  4. Account suspended
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    17 Feb '12 12:292 edits
    Originally posted by Penguin
    [b]There is an indefinable mysterious power that pervades everything. I feel it, though
    I do not see it. It is this unseen power which makes itself felt and yet defies all proof
    because it is so unlike all that I perceive through my senses. It transcends the
    senses.


    It's just the Midichlorians:

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/02/16/dark-matter-apparently-is-midichlorians/

    --- Penguin.[/b]
    I dont think Ghandi was referring to 'dark matter', clearly he attributes to , 'the power
    which pervades all things', a moral capacity which he terms benevolent, sigh, the folly
    of the materialist strikes again! You know better than that Penguin.
  5. Joined
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    17 Feb '12 14:18
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    There is an indefinable mysterious power that pervades everything. I feel it, though
    I do not see it. It is this unseen power which makes itself felt and yet defies all proof
    because it is so unlike all that I perceive through my senses. It transcends the
    senses.

    But it is possible to reason out the existence of god to an [unintelligible] e ...[text shortened]...
    reason. All that I can advise is not to attempt the impossible.

    Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
    ...the safest course is to believe...


    Has anyone been able to consciously pull off this trick of believing something because it is the safest course, to do so?
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    17 Feb '12 14:46
    Originally posted by JS357
    ...the safest course is to believe...


    Has anyone been able to consciously pull off this trick of believing something because it is the safest course, to do so?
    I think its safe to surmise that Ghandhi was referring to what he perceived as the moral
    law of the Universe, of which Dr. King referred to as tending towards justice. Of course
    this premise was established by Paul in his letter to the Romans, Chapter thirteen
    where he counsels Christians to be in subjection to the governmental authorities, not
    only on account of the wrath of the governments which one may incite if one opposes
    them, but on account of conscience. It seems that Ghandhi may have had similar
    thoughts in his statement of safety or it could be that when one goes beyond this
    morality which tends towards love and truth, one is on shaky moral ground the result
    of which could be catastrophic.
  7. Joined
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    17 Feb '12 15:09
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I think its safe to surmise that Ghandhi was referring to what he perceived as the moral
    law of the Universe, of which Dr. King referred to as tending towards justice. Of course
    this premise was established by Paul in his letter to the Romans, Chapter thirteen
    where he counsels Christians to be in subjection to the governmental authorities, no ...[text shortened]... owards love and truth, one is on shaky moral ground the result
    of which could be catastrophic.
    You did not answer my question.

    ...the safest course is to believe...



    Has anyone been able to consciously pull off this trick of believing something because it is the safest course, to do so?
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    17 Feb '12 15:19
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    There is an indefinable mysterious power that pervades everything. I feel it, though
    I do not see it. It is this unseen power which makes itself felt and yet defies all proof
    because it is so unlike all that I perceive through my senses. It transcends the
    senses.

    But it is possible to reason out the existence of god to an [unintelligible] e ...[text shortened]...
    reason. All that I can advise is not to attempt the impossible.

    Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
    gandhi was an amazing person, no doubts about that, but still he was another religious nut. faith transcending reason is a terrible,terrible,terrible thing. reason must be king, the lack of reason is why we have so many problems in a world that shouldnt have any.
    as thom yorke once sang " just because you feel it doesnt mean its there "

    my daughter believes in god and the tooth fairy. she said a few weeks back that some boys at school had said there was no such thing as the tooth fairy. she turned to the boys and said i know there is a tooth fairy because she had felt the tooth fairy come into her room and had felt the tooth fairy under her pillow. the boys said it was your mummy and she said it cant be my mummy because my mummy wouldnt lie to me. in her mind she is 100% correct, but it doesnt make her right.
  9. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
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    17 Feb '12 15:36
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    There is an indefinable mysterious power that pervades everything. I feel it, though
    I do not see it. It is this unseen power which makes itself felt and yet defies all proof
    because it is so unlike all that I perceive through my senses. It transcends the
    senses.

    But it is possible to reason out the existence of god to an [unintelligible] e ...[text shortened]...
    reason. All that I can advise is not to attempt the impossible.

    Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
    There is an indefinable mysterious power that pervades everything on the chessboard. I feel the power of Dynamism, though I do not see it although it is unveiled by the Super GMs. It is this unseen power, the Dynamism, which makes itself felt and yet defies all proof because it is so unlike all that I perceive on the chessboard through my senses. It transcends the senses.

    But it is possible to reason out the existence of god to an [unintelligible] exchange. Even in basic endgame positions we know that people do not know what rules, or why, and how it rules the position. And yet they know, thanks to Dvoretsky et al, that there is a Dynamism that certainly rules.

    In my tour last year in Moscow I met many average club players and I found upon inquiry that they did not know what element rules the chessboard. They simple said some GMs ruled it. If the knowledge of these players was so limited about Strategy, Tactics and Dynamism, I, who am infinitely a patzer, need not be surprised if I do not realize the presence of Dynamism, the king element of the most crucial elements.

    Nevertheless I do feel as the average club players felt about Dynamism, that there is orderliness on the chessboard. There is an unalterable law governing everything and every position that existed, exists or will arise. It is not a blind law, for no blind law can govern the conduct of the chessmen. And thanks to the marvelous researches of Quality Chess, it can now be proved that even a seemingly dull position is ruled by Dynamism.

    That Dynamism then which governs all the positions, is god. Strategy and Tactics are one. I may not deny the Strategy and the Tactics because I know so little about them, just as my denial or ignorance of the existence of Dynamism will avail me nothing. Even so, my denial of Dynamism and its elements will not liberate me from its operation. Whereas, humble and mute acceptance of the Super GMs’ authority makes chess’s journey easier even as the acceptance of Strategy and Tactics the Royal Game under it easier.

    I do dimly perceive that whilst all the positions I perceive are ever fully analyzed, ever guiding, there is underlying all that change a quality that is changeless, that holds all the elements together; that creates, dissolves, and recreates variations. That informing power of spirit is Dynamism. And since nothing else that I see merely through the senses can or will persist, Dynamism alone is.

    And if this power is benevolent or malevolent as regards a position, I see it as purely benevolent. For, I can see that in the midst of severe time pressure, the position persists. In the midst of untruth, truth persists. In the midst of darkness, light persists. Hence I gather that Dynamism is life, truth, light. Dynamism is the essence of the Royal Game. Dynamism is the supreme element. But, Dynamism is no god who merely satisfies the Super GMs, if it ever does. Dynamism to be Dynamism must rule the heart of the chess player and transform it. It must express itself in ever smallest act of his evaluation. This can only be done through a definite realization more real than the five senses can ever prove use.

    Plans and variations can be and often are false and deceptive however real they may appear to us. Where there is realization outside the senses it is [imperial?], it is proved not by extreme extraneous evidence, but in the transformed conduct and character of the Super GMs who have felt the real presence of Dynamism within. Such testimony is to be found in the experiences of an unbroken line of GMs in all countries and climes. To reject this evidence is to deny the Royal Game. This realization is preceded by an immovable faith whilst we are seeking the truth within the position. He who would in his own person, test the fact of Dynamism’s presence, can do so by studing at first Suba’s Dynamic Chess Strategy.

    And since faith on Dynamism itself cannot be proved by extraneous evidence, the safest course is to believe in the moral government of the chessboard and the chessmen and therefore in the supremacy of the law of the Stratagems, the law of the Tactical Opening, Middlegame and Endgame Combinations and the passion for the Royal Game. Exercise of plans and variations based on concrete evaluation will be the safest where there is the clear determination summarily to reject all that is contrary to plans and variations that do not hold.

    I confess that I have no argument to convince through reason. Faith in Dynamism transcends reason. All that I can advise is not to attempt the impossible.

    black beetle
    😵
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    17 Feb '12 16:45
    Originally posted by JS357
    You did not answer my question.

    ...the safest course is to believe...



    Has anyone been able to consciously pull off this trick of believing something because it is the safest course, to do so?
    yes i pay my taxes because its the safest thing to do, for i believe that the government
    will arrest me if i do not. Its not very tricky, although self assessment requires a
    degree of honesty.
  11. Joined
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    17 Feb '12 16:53
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes i pay my taxes because its the safest thing to do, for i believe that the government
    will arrest me if i do not. Its not very tricky, although self assessment requires a
    degree of honesty.
    I have forgotten something I have learned -- do not press you with questions. Thanks for the reminder.
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    17 Feb '12 16:571 edit
    Originally posted by black beetle
    There is an indefinable mysterious power that pervades everything on the chessboard. I feel the power of Dynamism, though I do not see it although it is unveiled by the Super GMs. It is this unseen power, the Dynamism, which makes itself felt and yet defies all proof because it is so unlike all that I perceive on the chessboard through my senses. It tra ...[text shortened]... m transcends reason. All that I can advise is not to attempt the impossible.

    black beetle
    😵
    you mock me beetle, but Ghandhi himself truly confesses that despite the limitations of
    the senses, he is grasping for God for he perceives out with his senses something
    pervasive. What is chess but the ability to see clearly, to determine whether a position
    is good for us, yes the elements are hidden, depending upon our level, but in
    aberration therein lies the beauty of the combination, even as within the universe there
    lies within sorrow knowledge that we shall be comforted, within darkness the
    knowledge that no matter how great this darkness is, even a little light cannot be
    overcome and i believe its to these realities that Ghandhi alludes.

    It must be noted how many GM's play intuitively beetle, that is, without recourse to
    reason. 🙂
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    17 Feb '12 17:00
    Originally posted by JS357
    I have forgotten something I have learned -- do not press you with questions. Thanks for the reminder.
    you can ask questions but they must be clearly expressed without affectation.
  14. SubscriberFMF
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    17 Feb '12 17:05
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    you can ask questions but they must be clearly expressed without affectation.
    JS357's question was absolutely point blank and crystal clear, robbie.
  15. Standard memberblack beetle
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    17 Feb '12 17:58
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    you mock me beetle, but Ghandhi himself truly confesses that despite the limitations of
    the senses, he is grasping for God for he perceives out with his senses something
    pervasive. What is chess but the ability to see clearly, to determine whether a position
    is good for us, yes the elements are hidden, depending upon our level, but in
    aberra ...[text shortened]... must be noted how many GM's play intuitively beetle, that is, without recourse to
    reason. 🙂
    Oh I teased you my trusty feer, like the trusty feers do, always with good spirit, and, why not, for a hearty lough over an imaginary tippeny or a wee dram;

    We both know Ghandi's beliefs alright; I shifted them a bit towards the Royal Game and the result is at least awkward (for examlpe, GMs "play intuitively" but their plans are not separated from reason; and when, say, Tal was entering variations without having a clear clue, he was doing it in order to imply time pressure and for pure pleasure -so resources to reason are always there. This qualitative difference I wanted to highlight by means of my post, and not to mock you. But now you do appear to beleive that GMs do play without resource to reason! And so we disagree -no big deal though)
    😵
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