Originally posted by jaywill…Curious and not terribly trustworthy.
Curious and not terribly trustworthy.
I would not put any confidence in things like this.
I would put my trust in what the Bible says.
"I almost died. I saw a light at the end of a long tunnel."
" I had a near death experience. I saw myself floating and watching my body on a bed."
"I was clinically deceased for a while. I saw my moms and my d ...[text shortened]... And he should have taken more heed to the Bible rather than sensational visions.
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Why not trustworthy? There are completely rational non-supernatural explanations for their experiences and there is no particular reason to believe they are lying. My brother claims to have had an out-of-body experience but doesn’t make the absurd claim that he REALLY was outside his body and just excepts that it was just a hallucination and certainly doesn’t claim anything supernatural from it (which isn’t surprising given he is an atheist) and I have absolutely no reason to distrust his claim to have had this experience. Have you?
Originally posted by jaywillSo what does the Bible have to say about NDE?
Curious and not terribly trustworthy. I would not put any confidence in things like this. I would put my trust in what the Bible says. [...] Curious, but not reliable. I would not pay attention to these things. I would trust the Bible to inform me of what I should know. No more and no less. That's safe.
Originally posted by jaywilljust because its not mentioned in the Bible specifically does not mean it does not exist or is not trustworthy. The Bible is not a field manual for every possible thing that could happen. Thats not its purpose. On the other hand , you should take all claims of NDE w/a grain of salt and investigate the validity of the source.
Curious and not terribly trustworthy.
I would not put any confidence in things like this.
I would put my trust in what the Bible says.
"I almost died. I saw a light at the end of a long tunnel."
" I had a near death experience. I saw myself floating and watching my body on a bed."
"I was clinically deceased for a while. I saw my moms and my d ...[text shortened]... And he should have taken more heed to the Bible rather than sensational visions.
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you should take all claims of NDE w/a grain of salt and investigate the validity of the source - utherpendragon
Why appeal to authority? How about whether it makes sense? (Or are you incapable of judgment?) If you are walking around claiming to see things it may be that those experiences are the result of natural forces or you may need psychiatric help. That is a judgment call. It was unreasonable for a for someone to step out of the window of a tall building because they claimed that Jesus was waving at them but a second or third hand account scribbled in words that have passed thru thousands of hands with no more actual verification is more reasonable because...? Because someone built a religious institution out of it to control the populace? Some people keep buying that bridge in Brooklyn when they need to take responsibility for their own thoughts, feelings, and actions. These unverifiable things can never be verified (that is their nature.) That doesn't mean you have to travel to Moscow on horseback with your neighbor who claims to be Napoleon. Feel free to speculate on on why he keeps his hand shoved in his coat but don't bore me by claiming to know unless you are ready to join him in another institution. None of us really 'know' these things.
Originally posted by TerrierJacki dont know why you quoted me because your response has nothing to do w/ what i said. By the" validity of the source" I mean ; does this person have a history of mental illness? has he made other claims like this in the past? is he trying to make money by selling his story? Is he just some joe blow or is he a fanatic ? factors such as these is how I make my" judgement"
you should take all claims of NDE w/a grain of salt and investigate the validity of the source - utherpendragon
Why appeal to authority? How about whether it makes sense? (Or are you incapable of judgment?) If you are walking around claiming to see things it may be that those experiences are the result of natural forces or you may need psychiatric ...[text shortened]... ss you are ready to join him in another institution. None of us really 'know' these things.
Originally posted by utherpendragonNo matter who experiences it, to them it appears real since their brain is sending the signals they see it as being real.
i dont know why you quoted me because your response has nothing to do w/ what i said. By the" validity of the source" I mean ; does this person have a history of mental illness? has he made other claims like this in the past? is he trying to make money by selling his story? Is he just some joe blow or is he a fanatic ? factors such as these is how I make my" judgement"
The person's reliability is definitely only part of it. These experiences are real to the people experiencing them, the only question is what the cause is.
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utherpendragon,
What I was trying to point out (and not as a criticism of you personally) was that the honesty of the person reporting the experience does not really bear on whether YOU (or anyone) should believe their explanation. The guy who jumped out of the window may have honestly reported his experience. Whether he was a "joe blow" or a "fanatic" does not free me from the necessity of judging the experience itself. You can weigh additional evidence but you surely have to start with the experience. For example, if your mother told you she was abducted by aliens would you automatically believe that? How about if a stranger told you they saw a mountain lion on a city street? They are both implausible but to what degree and does the reporter change the likelihood of the experience being factual? This is why I said "authority." No authority should override your obligation (to yourself) to make sense.
Originally posted by TerrierJackOK, I follow you. I misunderstood you
utherpendragon,
What I was trying to point out (and not as a criticism of you personally) was that the honesty of the person reporting the experience does not really bear on whether YOU (or anyone) should believe their explanation. The guy who jumped out of the window may have honestly reported his experience. Whether he was a "joe blow" or a "fanati ...[text shortened]... id "authority." No authority should override your obligation (to yourself) to make sense.
Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton======================================
[b]…Curious and not terribly trustworthy.
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Why not trustworthy? There are completely rational non-supernatural explanations for their experiences and there is no particular reason to believe they are lying. My brother claims to have had an out-of-body experience but doesn’t make the absurd claim that he REALLY was outside his body and ju ...[text shortened]... st) and I have absolutely no reason to distrust his claim to have had this experience. Have you?[/b]
Why not trustworthy? There are completely rational non-supernatural explanations for their experiences and there is no particular reason to believe they are lying.
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I do not deny that. The important thing for me is "How does it line up with what is taught in the Bible, God's revelation?"
Our spiritual enemy is very subtle. He can attempt to distract the Christian from Christ by pleasant things.
Such near death visions I would definitely place on the "back-burner". At most I might say to that person who had this experience - "Hmmm. That is interesting. I don't deny it. Niether do I confirm it. I just find it interesting."
My caution would be up just because it tickles human curiosity. The word of God has told us what we need to know about living and dying. That is much more important to know.
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My brother claims to have had an out-of-body experience but doesn’t make the absurd claim that he REALLY was outside his body and just excepts that it was just a hallucination and certainly doesn’t claim anything supernatural from it (which isn’t surprising given he is an atheist) and I have absolutely no reason to distrust his claim to have had this experience. Have you?
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Once again. I do not automatically discount the experience. Perhaps something para normal did take place. I do not discount such an experience out of hand.
My concern is "Okay, does this experience line up with what the Bible teaches. Or does this experience tend to cause us to discard the Bible and trust more in what this person has told us?"
Maybe, he did experience this or that. What is important to me is what the Bible teaches. If it agrees, it is at least not very harmful. If it does not agree but says something else, I don't trust it.
In the former case, it doesn't add much. In the latter case it may be harmful.
Paul warned the Christians about sensational visions of angels which visions could deceive:
"Let no one defraud you ... dwelling on things which he has seen vainly puffed up by his mind set on the flesh." (See Col. 2:18)
This may not be a purposeful defrauding. But an unintentional distracting from Christ. That distraction being some kind of sensation vision or sensational experience which causes one to turn from Christ to the sensation.
The next passage speaks of the need of ..."holding the Head". The Head meaning Jesus Christ. We Christians need to hold fast to the Head, Jesus Christ. We need to be cautious about being distracted from Christ even by sensational and good things.
History is littered with accounts of people being distracted from Christ by supposedly "spiritual" visions or sensational para-normal experiences.
Whether they happened or not is secondary to me. Maybe something did happen. What is more important is "Does this encrease my trust in Jesus or distract me from that to something else? Does this tend to encrease my thirst for God? Or does it tend to be a sideshow, a curiosity, making me think about sensational experiences just for their own sake?"
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My brother claims to have had an out-of-body experience but doesn’t make the absurd claim that he REALLY was outside his body and just excepts that it was just a hallucination and certainly doesn’t claim anything supernatural from it (which isn’t surprising given he is an atheist) and I have absolutely no reason to distrust his claim to have had this experience. Have you?
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I am surprised a little, that you are not as rigorious in examining you're brother's testimony as you are examining that of the New Testament witnesses.
Doesn't this indicate that we all kind of select the people whom we will trust ?
Originally posted by jaywillproverbs 18:10 says?.............
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My brother claims to have had an out-of-body experience but doesn’t make the absurd claim that he REALLY was outside his body and just excepts that it was just a hallucination and certainly doesn’t claim anything supernatural from it (which isn’t surprising given he is an atheist) and I have absolutely no reason to di tnesses.
Doesn't this indicate that we all kind of select the people whom we will trust ?[/b]